Faramir's armour...... vs Boromir's

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Oh dang, I thought we were talking about Faramir's armour in Minas Tirith versus Boromir's armour in Osgiliath...

Well, there was nothing practical or sensible about Faramir's suicide attack on Osgiliath. But, given that it was a frontal assault, rather than a guerilla action, full plate armour would seem the better choice.

[Neurion]

Well, this thread certainly took off while I was away.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

All this despite the fact Paris is the younger brother and the lesser warrior-Hector is embarassed by him and says "would that the earth might yawn open and swallow him on the spot" to their mother! He also reprimands Paris for his cowardice and slackness twice in Book VI.

Just something to ponder on...all translations by Minocher Dinshaw, Oppidan Scholar, Durnford House, alias guess who...

Cool. Thanks for the quote.

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

We're talking about the Osgiliath scene in the Extended Edition, right? The flash-back in TTT? Because I always thought that Boromir had the finer armor.

Boromir's armour there, Faramir's armour in RotK.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

But the best of the armour would be the one of Faramir, if they were to fight on their feet that is. Boromir's armour would be to heavy to fight with and he would get killed quit fast, plus it looks like he is allso wearing a chain mail!

Time for a history lesson, Rune.

No armour ever made was too heavy to fight in, with the exception of some tournament armours that were specially-reinforced to make sure that the chances of the jousting knight being hurt by the impact of the lances were miniscule. Some of those suits weighed up to 150 lbs or more, but the average weight of a full plate harness was about 60 lbs (mid-13th century full maille was slightly heavier), which is about the same amount a modern soldier's helmet, body armour, load-bearing gear (with ammunition, rations, etc) and weapon weigh.

Now take into account the fact that modern soldiers will often wear and be expected to move around wearing hundred-pound backpacks in addition to all that....

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

As for Bormir sure he could take quit many hits compared to Faramir, but he would have trouble reaching his fighting potential becourse of the limitede movment his armour would allow him. (allso making him an easyer target for accured hits as he would move slow) He would also grow tired quite quickly and easyer to kill.

The first law of medieval combat could probably be rendered as follows (in fact, Malcom Barber stated as much in The Warrior Monks) In close combat, an armoured man will rip a non-armoured man to shreds.

The thing is, I know you think that armour was slow, clumsy and cumbersome to wear into battle, but that's as false an impression as assuming that medival swords weighed ten or more pounds.

Medieval armour (and Gondorian armour follows the pattern quite closely) was designed to be as flexible and light as possible while maximizing protection. A knight in full cap a pie armour, trained to wear it like a well-fitted suit of clothes, could run, jump, turn cartwheels, sprint over short distances and even perform handsprings. A warrior in half or partial armour like Boromir would be even more agile.

*sigh*

I'm going to have to dig up some armour links for you to read up on.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

That is why plated armour was only used on cavalery in the medieval days,

Plate armour was generally used by anyone who could afford it. Among other things, it's impervious to arrows, despite what the films would have you think.

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Oh dang, I thought we were talking about Faramir's armour in Minas Tirith versus Boromir's armour in Osgiliath...

We were...

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

I thought, in that case, that Faramir's armour was kind of like the case with Hector and Paris--ceremonial versus practical, which made no sense because he was riding off to war.

According to the commentaries, they wanted Faramir's armour to look like it belonged to someone important, without making it to similar to the men he would lead into battle, building on Faramir's humility, I suppose.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Well, there was nothing practical or sensible about Faramir's suicide attack on Osgiliath.

Quite.

I might add that it's quite remarkable that they went out without benefit of either lances nor shields, something no action by medieval armoured cavalry was ever undertaken, so far as I know.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Time for a history lesson, Rune.

I'm going to have to dig up some armour links for you to read up on.

I Love history lessons !


You should do that. This is not the subject in witch i have my greates knowledge so tomrow i will go to The Royal Armouries and when i return i shall either fight to the bitter end or accept my defeat.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I Love history lessons !


You should do that. This is not the subject in witch i have my greates knowledge so tomrow i will go to The Royal Armouries and when i return i shall either fight to the bitter end or accept my defeat.

I'll look forward to either your capitulation or glorious combat, whichever.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally posted by The Saucepan Man
Well, there was nothing practical or sensible about Faramir's suicide attack on Osgiliath. But, given that it was a frontal assault, rather than a guerilla action, full plate armour would seem the better choice.

Very true. When Faramir was actually engaged in guerilla action with the orcs in Osgiliath, at the beginning of ROTK, he (along with most of the other Gondorians) was wearing the same leather jerkin as in TTT--ditto in Ithilien, as mentioned.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Neurion

No armour ever made was too heavy to fight in, with the exception of some tournament armours that were specially-reinforced to make sure that the chances of the jousting knight being hurt by the impact of the lances were miniscule. Some of those suits weighed up to 150 lbs or more, but the average weight of a full plate harness was about 60 lbs (mid-13th century full maille was slightly heavier), which is about the same amount a modern soldier's helmet, body armour, load-bearing gear (with ammunition, rations, etc) and weapon weigh.

Tournaments armours were often the same armour as was worn in to battle; the main difference was that in tournaments you added some extra plates for protection. Only the really rich and I mean really rich could afford two, often these armours was inherited from the father.

I cannot say that much about exact the weight of armour, but I have read that a helmet weight about 13lbs.
I have allso read of cases were a full plated knight has been knocked of his horse and could not get up because of the weight of the armour.

Allthough a chainmail was heavy it was still lighter than a full plate harness

Originally Posted by Neurion

Medieval armour (and Gondorian armour follows the pattern quite closely) was designed to be as flexible and light as possible while maximizing protection. A knight in full cap a pie armour, trained to wear it like a well-fitted suit of clothes, could run, jump, turn cartwheels, sprint over short distances and even perform handsprings. A warrior in half or partial armour like Boromir would be even more agile.

I would weary much like to see some documentation if it is possibel, since every book i have read clearly contradicts this statement. A full plated knight needs i his horse to fight!

I will give you this: Asuming Boromir is so well made as the platedt armour was justy before it got outdated, it would have been light enough for him to be fully mobile on a battle field.


If we go back to the 14th centery the kind of armour Boromir was wearing was manly used by pikemen who did not need great agillety, as there main purpos was to hold a close formation so that the cavelary could not charge.

Basicly what i am saying is: You were right about Boromir's armour and i was wrong, but your arguments i find was mostly wrong.

[Neurion]

Oh, this is going to be fun....

I'll leave you this to mull over while I go limber up the heavy artillery.

From the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA)

4: Knights in full plate armor were clumsy and slow.

False. The popular belief in untutored knights clumsily swinging crude swords while awkwardly lumbering around in heavy armor is inaccurate and uninformed. Mistaken claims that Medieval armored horsemen had become clanking tanks or that unhorsed a knight was at his foe’s mercy have become common even among some medieval historians. A warrior in plate armor was far from being the sluggish lobster so frequently mischaracterized by military writers. While an armored man was not as agile as an unarmored one, plate armor overall was well balanced and ingeniously designed to permit considerable maneuverability and nimbleness. This fact is clearly expressed in the fighting literature on armored combat and born out by modern experiments in both antique armor specimens and historically accurate reproductions. Unlike what has been notoriously misrepresented in popular culture, a well-trained and physically conditioned man fighting in full harness was typically a formidable opponent (and there were many different kinds of armor for foot or mounted combat). But this is not to say that fighting in full plate armor was not tiresome or stifling. Armor restricted breathing and ability to ventilate body heat, as well as limited vision and hearing. If armor did not work well it would not have been around for so long in so many different forms. (For more on this see: “Medieval Armor: Plated Perfection” in Military History, July 2005).

[Neurion]

Alright, I managed to get enough time off over the week to put up a few links.

Weight of medieval armour

FAQ from the Academy of European Martial Arts

Members' pictures from the Asociation for Renaissance Martial Arts (Ogden chapter). Casper Bradak demonstrating technique for fighting in armour

Two Floryshes in Armour: A short video with Casper Bradak demonstrating how he can move in harness.

I'll get some more eventually.

[Elrowen Tinúviel]

Man, I wish I had come upon this discussion earlier as it is one of my alltime favorite topics; and I found everything I was going to say regarding the myth of knights' armor being extremely heavy, already answered. Though I must say that well-fitting armor doesn't encumber one's movement much, and the weight is something that a fighter grows accustomed to.
There's my two cents.