Most Tragic Figure

[Telchar]

Im not sure, but maybe you guys should try to define what tragic caracter means... is it A: The one who bore the bigger sorrow? or B: He whos life ends more tragicly, compared to he/she might otherwise have achived. I think the latter.

With that in mind I belive, like Mister Underhill on page one, that Caracters who fell from greatness are the most tragic - those who were ensnared by lust for power such as Saruman and Sauron, but also Ted Sandyman and Lotho. By imposed sorrow and dispair like Denethor. Or by fear such as the latter kings of Numenor (fear of death).

Among those I regard the fall of Saruman and his end, his hatred and malice was the saddest.

Gandalf in Fangorn
‘Then is not Saruman a traitor?’ said Gimli.
‘Indeed yes,’ said Gandalf. ‘Doubly. And is not that strange? Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed so grievous as the treason of Isengard.

Frodo in The Shire
He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Telchar

Im not sure, but maybe you guys should try to define what tragic caracter means... is it A: The one who bore the bigger sorrow? or B: He whos life ends more tragicly, compared to he/she might otherwise have achived. I think the latter.

With that in mind I belive, like Mister Underhill on page one, that Caracters who fell from greatness are the most tragic - those who were ensnared by lust for power such as Saruman and Sauron, but also Ted Sandyman and Lotho. By imposed sorrow and dispair like Denethor. Or by fear such as the latter kings of Numenor (fear of death).

Among those I regard the fall of Saruman and his end, his hatred and malice was the saddest.

It seems to me that Saruman's fall never quite acquires the emotional feel of anguish and regret that the falls of Tolkien's other tragic heroes have, because we are so little shown Saruman in the process of that fall. That final scene in the The Shire, where Grima turns on him, is excrutiatingly well done, but I miss not seeing just how Saruman got there. We tend to be given simply the consequences. This has always, to me, been a missed opportunity for character development, so that Saruman never quite makes it to the pantheon of other tragic heroes.

[Telchar]

It's just that the thread asks for most Tragic Figure not most tragic Hero

[Anguirel]

I believe Bethberry's point still applies. She's not questioning Saruman on the grounds that he is not heroic, (which is debatable-he could be seen as heroic in the Macbeth sense) but rather because several stages of the process of his fall from grace are not documented, a valid objection.

We do see the workings of his jealousy against Gandalf corrupting him, however. But the tantalising description of him seeking out too much knowledge-in other words, experiencing the fall of Faustus, of Icarus, or of Dante's Odysseus-is not covered in detail, and this is to my mind the more interesting aspect.

[Essex]

To me, the reason why I put forward Frodo (as a few others have) as the most tragic figure is that he (in all his victories) has to put up with the Ring being taken from him forceably. We do not see his possible descent into madness, and this no doubt is an extreme view, but, like Gollum, he did not give the Ring up freely, and he still has to pay the consequences. Yes, he was bitten, stung and stabbed, and these wounds will take time to heal that he will hopefully achieve in the West, but what of his mental scars of losing the Ring?

This is why I see him as the most Tragic figure in Tolkien's work. To me, I need to feel some apathy towards a figure for them to be seen as tragic to me. this may be an incorrect interpretation of Tragedy, but this is what I feel nonetheless.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I believe Bethberry's point still applies. She's not questioning Saruman on the grounds that he is not heroic, (which is debatable-he could be seen as heroic in the Macbeth sense) but rather because several stages of the process of his fall from grace are not documented, a valid objection.

We do see the workings of his jealousy against Gandalf corrupting him, however. But the tantalising description of him seeking out too much knowledge-in other words, experiencing the fall of Faustus, of Icarus, or of Dante's Odysseus-is not covered in detail, and this is to my mind the more interesting aspect.

Quite so, yes. As readers, we really are not allowed to experience vicariously his fall, as we are asked, I think, to experience Frodo's anquish and even Gollem's terrible fate.

But does the concept of tragedy incorporate only a fall from greatness, or does it also involve the terrible way in which a character tries to avoid the fall or the fate, but whose very effort makes the fall inevitable? Is irony part of tragedy or only pity? Do the gods toy with tragic characters?

Originally Posted by Essex

To me, I need to feel some apathy towards a figure for them to be seen as tragic to me. this may be an incorrect interpretation of Tragedy, but this is what I feel nonetheless.

Not to question your interpretation of tragedy, but I don't quite understand what you mean by 'apathy' here, Essex.

[Gothmog]

Well, I've already spoken for Gwindor as the elf who had it hardest (here)
but when I read this thread I came to think about the sons of Feanor. At least Maedhros and Maglor. They lived their lives trapped by the oath of their father and I've always felt as if those two could have gone an other way if things would have been different.

All of Feanors sons was born in one of the most noble of families and they were all gifted in one way or another. But as the time passed, they were all involved in the downfall of the noldor. Still I don't think they were evil. Ok, it's hard to find any good deeds amongst Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir. But for example: Elrond and Elros ended up just fine after beeing taken care of by Maglor

For Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath.

None of them was a saint, but I feal sorry for them. As always, it's a question of definition; what is a tragic figure?

And their death may also grant them a place in the tragic hall of fame. Finally able to put their hands on the Silmarils but as is said about Maedhros:

...and that his right thereto had become void, and the oathwas vain.

One throwing himself in to a chasm of fire in "anguish and despair" and the other forever wandering the shores, "singing in pain and regret".

Is that to be called tragic?