Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Aiwendil]

NA-EX-30:

NA-EX-30 <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found a hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of Amon Rûdh/; but he did not at that time tell anybody of it./>

The addition sounds a little awkward to me, though I may be reading too critically. Perhaps:

NA-EX-30 <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found a hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of Amon Rûdh/; but he spoke of it to no one./>

NA-EX-32:

NA-EX-32 <Ap Narn And {either} during the foray just mentioned,{ or on a later occasion}, Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft,>

I think we can safely delete "just mentioned", which is incongruously colloquial, since this is CT's summary anyway:

NA-EX-32 <Ap Narn And {either} during the foray {just mentioned, or on a later occasion}, Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft {.}>

Also, I think the last period was supposed to be in deletion brackets rather than underlined.

NA-TI-15.3

NA-TI-15.3 <Sil77 {and they}And his man were quickly healed, for though the Grey-elves were less in skill and knowledge than the Exiles from Valinor, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth they had a wisdom beyond the reach of Men.>

Should be:

NA-TI-15.3 <Sil77 {and they}And his men were quickly healed, for though the Grey-elves were less in skill and knowledge than the Exiles from Valinor, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth they had a wisdom beyond the reach of Men.>

NA-EX-36:

NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus "undone" his curse upon Andróg.

I think we have here more of CT's colloquialisms that can be omitted. I would say:

NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but {it seems} that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg.

A problem that occurs to me reading over these paragraphs is that, since we never state that they returned to Amon Rudh, it sounds like the whole scene takes place at the camp in the snow. This is fine up until Mim becomes involved - the implication of the text as it stands is that Mim was with them at the camp, which surely was not the case. I think that perhaps the best approach is to add a simple statement to the effect that they returned to Amon Rudh. Perhaps:

NA-EX-34.5But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, /and returned with the men to Bar-en-Danwedh/ and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company.

NA-EX-38

NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, although he supported him;{ that} it seemed to him that the Dragon-helm had worked otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and{ that} he foresaw with a troubled mind what the days to come would bring. Scraps of his words with Túrin on these matters are preserved. {In one of these, they}They sat in the stronghold of Echad i Sedryn together, and Túrin said to Beleg:

I think that the sentence "Scraps of his words with Turin on these matters are preserved" is CT's comment about JRRT's text, and cannot be transmuted into a comment by some intra- Legendarium historian about the surviving records of the First Age. I would delete it:

NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, although he supported him;{ that} it seemed to him that the Dragon-helm had worked otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and{ that} he foresaw with a troubled mind what the days to come would bring. {Scraps of his words with Túrin on these matters are preserved. In one of these, they}They sat in the stronghold of Echad i Sedryn together, and Túrin said to Beleg:

NA-EX-40

NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time withheld his hand and made mere feints of attack, {"}So that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening; as it proved indeed.{"}>

A minor point, but "So" should not be capitalized:

NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time withheld his hand and made mere feints of attack, {"}[s]o that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening; as it proved indeed.{"}>

NA-TI-19

Then the Ore-captain laughed, and he said to Mîm: {'}["]Assuredly Túrin son of Húrin shall not be slain.{'}["]

A typo: should be "Orc-captain". Also, I thought that our general policy was to use single quotes for speech instead of double.

I have become a bit troubled by the curse of Mim upon Androg. If Androg survives the battle, then the curse cannot be fulfilled. But it seems that at the time the curse was written about, it was most certainly intended to be fulfilled. I think there is a strong case for taking the statement that Androg survived as contradicting the curse of Mim. We must decide, then, from among the following:

1. Androg's survival does not contradict the curse.

2. The curse is to be excised from the narrative.

3. Androg's survival must be taken as a projected change that cannot be implemented.

Old discussion:

NA-EX-28.5: If we retain it, I think this placement is good. But it may not be clear in that position that the statement refers to the time they first came upon Mim. Maybe:

NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin learned that/{refers to} Mîm {seeking}/had sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"} /when they had first found him/.> {And} But in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and {their name}[the name of the Petty-Dwarves] was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>

NA-TI-07.5: I'm afraid I still don't quite follow you here. As I see it, we have two statements:

1. The outlaws remained in the Vale of Sirion
2. The outlaws went south to Aelin-uial and then became discontent and returned.

I think we must either follow 1, follow 2, or decide that they are not contradictory and follow both. In other words, as I see it, the statement that they went south must be treated as an indivisble unit; I don't think we'd be justified in taking only part of that version.

[Findegil]

NA-EX-34.5: I think that "... and ... and ..." isn't that good. What about:

[NA-EX-34.5[/b]But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart /, but returned with the men to Bar-en-Danwedh/, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. ...

Posted by Aiwendil:

Also, I thought that our general policy was to use single quotes for speech instead of double.

That's good to know. I think it was discussed before my time and I did never asked but switched forward and backward some times.

I have become a bit troubled by the curse of Mim upon Androg. If Androg survives the battle, then the curse cannot be fulfilled. But it seems that at the time the curse was written about, it was most certainly intended to be fulfilled. I think there is a strong case for taking the statement that Androg survived as contradicting the curse of Mim. We must decide, then, from among the following:

1. Androg's survival does not contradict the curse.

2. The curse is to be excised from the narrative.

3. Androg's survival must be taken as a projected change that cannot be implemented.

Why should the cruse not be fullfilled if Androg survives the battle upon Amon Rudh? On the contary it was also never told how he died there. I think he could survie that battle and later die a violent death acording to the curse.

NA-EX-28.5: Your addition is good, even if I do not think it necessary to make it perfectly clear what was meaned. But you seem to have still some doubts about the inclusion?

NA-TI-07.5: Posted by Aiwendil:

In other words, as I see it, the statement that they went south must be treated as an indivisble unit; I don't think we'd be justified in taking only part of that version.

I can see your point. But still it sound odd to me first to tell all about the way of Turin and his band and then speak of Beleg starting on thier track in the same area of which we had just told that Túrin had returned to. So what about:

Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11 {they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, and {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion{"}>.
Many messengers had been sent out by Thingol to seek Túrin within Doriath and in the lands near its borders; ...
...
... "Alas!" he cried. "To well did I teach this child of Men craft in wood and field! An Elvish band almost one might think this to be." But they for their part became aware that they were trailed by some tireless pursuer, whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {but}And with the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}/ above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion/, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards, as Beleg had feared, the Orcs came across the Brithiach, ...

If that does not go in your oppinion, I think that this would be as fare as I would go:

Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}
Many messengers had been sent out by Thingol to seek Túrin within Doriath and in the lands near its borders; ...
...
... "Alas!" he cried. "To well did I teach this child of Men craft in wood and field! An Elvish band almost one might think this to be." But they for their part became aware that they were trailed by some tireless pursuer, whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11{they}They had remained in the Vale of Sirion, and {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they went away}had gone southwards and {came}come to the country {"}above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion{"} but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards, as Beleg had feared, the Orcs came across the Brithiach, ...

All the issues I did not comment on, I agree with Aiwendils versions/comments.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

NA-EX-34.5: Your suggestions looks good.

Findegil wrote:

Why should the cruse not be fullfilled if Androg survives the battle upon Amon Rudh? On the contary it was also never told how he died there. I think he could survie that battle and later die a violent death acording to the curse.

That's a good point. Still, at the time the text was written, the curse was clearly supposed to result in Androg's death during the battle at Amon Rudh. I think that if we have Androg survive (which I suppose we must do), we should simply delete the reference to the curse at this point:

There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last {mortally wounded by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.} [but alone of all]> <Aelfwine & Dirhaval A the outlaw-band of Túrin{, and alone} he survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.>

NA-EX-28.5: I suppose I'm ultimately for the inclusion of this bit.

NA-TI-07.5: Your first suggestion looks good to me.

If this section is settled, I'll move on to the next section as soon as I get a chance - possibly tonight but more likely tomorrow or Friday.

[Findegil]

the Curse on Androg: What a bad argument on my side! That what a bad memory creats! Your suggestions is good, but I think wounded should be used to clear it up ultimatly:

NA-EX-41 <Ap Narn It was only then that {he} [Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded {by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.}[but alone of all]> <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A the outlaw-band of Túrin{, and alone}he survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.>

Without the point above we are then done with this section.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Meadhros and Aiwendil, please let me know when it is okay for you that I start posting diffrences between The Children of Húrin and our version of the Narn. What I post might be bad spoilers to your reading of The Children of Húrin.

Also this is a warning to all: If you did not jet finish The Children of Húrin and are not interested knowing beforehand what is diffrent in that book DO NOT READ further in this thread.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Meadhros and Aiwendil, please let me knowwhen it is okay for that I start posting diffrences between The CHildren of Húrin and our version of the Narn. What I post might be bad spoilers to your reading of The CHildren of Húrin.

Hmmmmm. I don't know. I will get my Children of Húrin book in July, but I have no problem with you posting the changes in it. I mean, it's not as if I haven't read the story before.

[Aiwendil]

Yes, post away by all means.