You say 'Faeries' & I say 'Fairies'

[drigel]

so my leap is executed, but falls short

aarrrgh
it hurts us, yes it hurtss

So.... ,

The transition to and from, and realization of faerie that seems to be part of the foundation of the theme of the works, does seem (from a human's POV) to be (in part) the study of human nature, and how it relates with mortality. And your premise is that this theme could not be fully reached without a more "noble" form of fairy, (i.e. - one that really didnt exist)? Or, in other words, can one from faerie experience eucatastrophe? The author could not figure out how to describe this without having to invent a new fairie, eh wot?

edit:
Or was it simply that he thought no one would take the stories/legendarium seriously if he used the traditional model - a known commodity?

btw - thanks for the links! interesting stuff

[davem]

Originally Posted by drigel

And your premise is that this theme could not be fully reached without a more "noble" form of fairy, (i.e. - one that really didnt exist)? Or, in other words, can one from faerie experience eucatastrophe? The author could not figure out how to describe this without having to invent a new fairie, eh wot?

The interesting question is, while he did create a mythology in the Legendarium, can we say he wrote a 'fairy story'. A few people have referred to OFS as his creative manifesto, his laying out of the rules & the groundwork for true fairy stories. But is the Legendarium as a whole & LotR in particular, actually a Fairy story. Well, it obeys the 'law' in that it contains Eucatastrophe. But is that Eucatastrophe a Fairy tale one or something more, something deeper & more profound. It may well be that the type of Eucatastrophe he wished to depict required the kind of Faerie he created.

The Eucatastrophe we find in fairy stories is of an altogether simpler, more human & earthly kind - as in the story of The Black Bull of Norroway which he cites in the essay. But the kind of Eucatastrophe Tolkien was interested in (which could rghtly be called 'Evangelium') was far from that. It was the kind of Eucatastrophe to be found in his 'True Myth' (ie the Gospel) that he was concerned with. No fairy story that I know of reaches those kinds of 'heights'.

So, what do we actually have? Tolkien wishing to 'subcreate' a world where the equivalent kind & degree of Eucatastrophe found in the Gospels could occur. That could not happen in a tale of traditional Faerie, so he had to invent a new kind of Faerie where it could.

But I still have to ask, if that was his intention, why go to such lengths to involve traditional Faerie at all? Why not just do a 'Milton'? I suppose that he wanted to include Faerie because he loved it, to 'redeem' it. Yet in the very act of saving it he changed it beyond recognition.

In Smith he seems almost to be going back to traditional Faerie - almost, but not quite - after all, there is no real going back....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Really? If the facts reported in the Silmarillion are to be trusted, Eol kept Aredhel in Nan Elmoth against her will and forcibly married her.

I've posted on this on a dedicated thread before, which I ought find, but in order to get to the point:

Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. ... when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into his house. And there she remained; for Eol took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.

It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years.

It is indeed not clear exactly what happened, but one thing is clear, that she was not 'wholly unwilling' - this much the 'writer' of the text will allow. It does not state that he forced her to marry him; he makes it impossible for her to leave the woods until she has met him, but force is not mentioned.

Now, back to Faerie, looking at this tale again with this topic in mind has made me think twice about some of the images therein. The story of Eol is directly drawn from Faerie!

there Eol would meet the Naugrim and hold converse with them. And as their friendship grew he would at times go and dwell as guest in the deep mansions of Nogrod or Belegost. He devised a metal as hard as the steel of the Dwarves, but so malleable that he could make it thin and supple; and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts. He named it galvorn, for it was black and shining like jet, and he was clad in it whenever he went abroad.

Wayland and Eol both possess remarkable skills as Smiths, and both make armour, their skills having been learned from Dwarves. In addition, Wayland and Eol both 'seduce' important or high-ranking female figures.

The Saxon figure of Wayland is associated with Wayland's Smithy, which was built by a much older culture and had a pre-existing story about a Smith associated with it (leave a horse with a silver coin by the tomb and it will be shod in the morning). The tomb is traditionally seen as an entrance to the Underworld or Otherworld; Eol makes these very same journeys when he chooses to go to the Dwarf cities of Nogrod and Belegost. Furthermore, he has learned much more than smithing:

his eyes could see deep into shadows and dark places.

This is clearly a very different kind of Elf. The story hints that he has been 'elsewhere'. He lives away from other Elves, possibly as he yearns for the time before the Noldor came back to Middle-earth:

He shunned the Noldor, holding them to blame for the return of Morgoth, to trouble the quiet of Beleriand; but for the Dwarves he had more liking than any other of the Elvenfolk of old.

What does this signify? The Noldor have been to Valinor and lived in the Light of the Trees, yet here is an Elf who chooses to shun them and mix with the Dwarves under the earth. It is almost as though Eol is pagan man, shunning the new Christians, and preferring to mingle with and learn from the Faerie folk. When he refuses to stay in Gondolin, or to 'convert', he is provoked to madness.

There are also echoes of the ballad of Tam Lin in the 'escape' of Maeglin with Aredhel, and in the enchantment which Aredhel falls under when she first enters Nan Elmoth. And another link springs to mind with the folk tale of the last two Picts to possess the secret of Heather Ale, a father and son; the father asks for the son to be thrown from the cliffs after which he will tell the secret but then throws himself off. The Pictish men are thrown off by near kin, the Scots from Ulster.

Hmm, these are slightly mad thoughts, but now I'm writing about it, I can see something in it... Maybe Faerie does exist in Middle-earth, just not in the Eldar?

[drigel]

Hmm, these are slightly mad thoughts,

quite
welcome to my world thank Davem for me

Maybe Faerie does exist in Middle-earth, just not in the Eldar?

but it hurtsesss

Omission can be interpreted in any way, I suppose. Inclusion is really the meat of analysis because - well - omission is omission.

Considering the body of work (Legendarium, OFS, SoWM, LOTR, Silm, et al), I can find different aspects of:
1: how a traditional fairy tale aught to be
2: how a fairy tale could and should be
3: what a fairy tale really is, once you strip it down to it's essence. No cultural stigmata, no yarn-spinning - just the original tale, as told by the players.

[Numenorean]

Lalwendë

I sometimes get the impression that there are two distinct histories of Elves, one which we can all read, the other never having been written down at all. On the one hand we have the Noldor, and those of the Teleri and Avari who chose (maybe?) to follow them. Then we also have the unwritten history of the Teleri and Avari who remained independent of the Eldar.

and

The Hobbit on the other hand is Bilbo's personal tale, and it is here that we see the Elves of Mirkwood acting in a sinister fashion, and the Elves of Rivendell having fun; maybe The Hobbit is the most 'unbiased' view of Elves that we have, being written by a Hobbit with no 'agenda'?

I really like those theories Lal, and to me at any rate they go a long way to explaining the differing realities and perceptions of Faerie that saturate through the Legendarium, or as Drigel succinctly states:

Considering the body of work (Legendarium, OFS, SoWM, LOTR, Silm, et al), I can find different aspects of:
1: how a traditional fairy tale aught to be
2: how a fairy tale could and should be
3: what a fairy tale really is, once you strip it down to it's essence. No cultural stigmata, no yarn-spinning - just the original tale, as told by the players.

Lalwendë

Perhaps in the case of LotR it is that the story cannot allow any room for traditional Faerie, it cannot allow for amoral behaviour?

Maybe because it deals with – amongst other themes - the ascendance of Mans Dominion over Arda? Moral ambiguity in the LoTR seems to be evident only when we are hearing of someone or something second or even thirdhand, notably the Rohirrims warped and superstitious viewpoint of Galadriel. They are deemed to be an honourable and ‘good hearted’ race, yet their fear and lack of comprehension as to what Galadriel is actually about is perhaps indicative of humankinds fading respect and understanding of Faerie as a whole.

On a bit(!) of a tangent:-
Davem

In Smith he seems almost to be going back to traditional Faerie - almost, but not quite ...*The chronology Tolkien constructed for the story has Smith born in the year 1063, discovering the Star in 1073, marrying Nell in 1091 & making his last journey into Faerie in 1120 - making him about 57. 'His long journeys in Faerie probably were undertaken mostly in the years between 1098 & 1108, & 1115-20

Davem, when I saw the above chronology I was struck by the curious and maybe deliberate coincidence of the Smith storyline intersecting with the arrival and ascendancy of the Normans in Britain from 1066 onwards. Was this a conscious motivation for Tolkien?
History records that their policies were harsh and oppressive upon the native Anglo-Saxons and Brits, and heralded the commencement of the grim ‘modernising’ feudal era. The Norman invasion and subsequent proliferation of their culture across the land can also be seen as a time when traditional Faerie waned. The mystery of the land was greatly lessened via Norman military conquests, power motivated projects such as Domesday and as a result of local administrative centres based in castles.
In short, the erosion of traditional Faerie was vast and in most places irredeemable, and where it even survived at all Faerie was pushed back to the deepest corners and forests of the land. JRRT was probably acutely aware of the crushing impact of Normanisation upon the previously rich tapestry of native British myths, legends and lore, and that leads me to believe that the Smith timeline is no mere coincidence, or perhaps it was…

[drigel]

JRRT was probably acutely aware of the crushing impact of Normanisation upon the previously rich tapestry of native British myths, legends and lore, and that leads me to believe that the Smith timeline is no mere coincidence, or perhaps it was…

Nice thoughts about folding in historical influences, Numeronean!

I think about macro timelines as well esp when considering the Catholic/Christian POV, and how it relates to the Great Defeat as well. How the view of our history being a "downhill slide" since Eden. That is pronounced esp when looking at Legendarium elvish history, although being apart from Ea, there is a high-to-low progression. Contrast that to standard scientific view of "its all uphill" since we arose from the slime....

[davem]

Originally Posted by drigel

Nice thoughts about folding in historical influences, Numeronean!

I think about macro timelines as well esp when considering the Catholic/Christian POV, and how it relates to the Great Defeat as well. How the view of our history being a "downhill slide" since Eden. That is pronounced esp when looking at Legendarium elvish history, although being apart from Ea, there is a high-to-low progression. Contrast that to standard scientific view of "its all uphill" since we arose from the slime....

In the Smith essay Tolkien refers to a 'reformation':

The Great Hall is evidently in a way an 'allegory' of the village church; the Master Cook with his house adjacent, and his office that is not hereditary, provides for its own instruction and succession but is not one of the 'secular' or profitable crafts, and yet is supported financially by the village, is plainly the Parson and the priesthood. 'Cooking' is a domestic affair practised by men and women: personal religion and prayer. The Master Cook presides over and provides for all the religious festivals of the year, and also for all the religious occasions that are not universal: births, marriages, and deaths. The Great Hall is however no longer painted or decorated. If antique carvings, whether grotesques like gargoyles, or beautiful and of religious import, are preserved at all it is by mere custom. The Hall is kept rainproof, weatherproof and warm: that is the prime object of any care spent on it. Festivals are mere public assemblies, for talk assisted by eating and drinking: there are no longer songs, music, or dances. The church has been 'reformed'. Memory survives of 'merrier' days, but most of the village would not approve of any revival of them. That a MC (Master Cook) should himself sing is regarded as out of accord with his office.

Perhaps Tolkien was not thinking so much of the Norman invasion as of the English Reformation & the Dissolution of the Monasteries under Henry VIII. Under ther Protestant Reformers (& later under Cromwell & the Commonwealth) there were, to a great extent, 'no longer songs, music, or dances' - it was (as Flieger noted when she read the essay out at Birmingham) the end of 'Merrie England' - as much of a fantasy as that may have been.

In fact, this whole passage is clearly (if only on one level) an 'allegory' of the Reformation & the rise of Protestant England. That being the case, what are the 'Faeries' in Smith - not 'Angels or Messengers of God' says Tolkien, but it seems they may have had Catholic sympathies!