LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range.

This is something like what I meant by its "mindless desire". But I don't see it as simply being attracted to power - Mt. Doom is the place where the Ring was forged, so I would imagine it is drawn thither more strongly than it is toward other sources of power.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is something like what I meant by its "mindless desire". But I don't see it as simply being attracted to power - Mt. Doom is the place where the Ring was forged, so I would imagine it is drawn thither more strongly than it is toward other sources of power.

What I meant was, just as a compass needle not in the vicinity of a magnetic object would be drawn to magnetic North, so the Ring would be drawn to Mount Doom, but if any other 'magnetic' objeact came into its orbit it would be pulled that way. Once it had 'seduced' that individual into itself the pull to Mount Doom would reassert itself. So, the overall pull would be to the Mountain, but the Ring may get sidetracked . It needs bearers to get it to its destination, but it changes them as soon as it finds a better mode of transport.

Basically this means that no-one could master the Ring - it would always retain the power to leave its 'master' & move on. My own feeling is that it is the Fires at the heart of the earth, rather than Sauron, which draw the Ring. I've speculated before that 'the fires which well up from the heart of the earth' (ie the fires of Orodruin) are the same as the Secret Fire which Eru set to burn at the heart of the earth.

The thing that now occurs is, while the Ring may not have 'desired' its own destruction in the fire, it may have 'desired' to return to, & become one with, its source (which it may not have seen as 'destruction' at all)

Now, all the foregoing may seem to imply a conscious, desiring, will on the Ring's part - which I don't necessarily think is the case. It is, to my mind, perhaps on the level of a moth drawn to a candle flame, which, if it attains its 'desire' will find only its own destruction.

[Encaitare]

A contribution because I've been away from CbC for far too long, albeit a small one because, well, Spanish essays don't write themselves. Regarding the oft-quotes star passage:

For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Symbolism and aesthetic quality aside, the actual structure of this sentence really helps to bring the point home. The light (or Light, as it may be) is the point of the sentence; just as it states that the Shadow is "a small and passing thing," Tolkien skims right over it here, from light to light.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Well, you may certainly think this if you like, but you are not in agreement with the text...of which I believe somebody already helpfully provided a relevant passage.

And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.

This does not mean that the Ring is sentient; that is only one way of looking at the meaning of those words. Of course Gollum would never have "forsaken it, or cast it aside", it was his precious; what happened was that he lost it. And fate so happened that Bilbo found it. This is a way of explaining to Frodo how such things happen, how he came to be in the situation he was left in, as a Ringbearer. Yes, the Ring left Gollum, and yes, the Ring decided the future course of Bilbo and Frodo's lives, but it did not do so sentiently.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This does not mean that the Ring is sentient; that is only one way of looking at the meaning of those words. Of course Gollum would never have "forsaken it, or cast it aside", it was his precious; what happened was that he lost it. And fate so happened that Bilbo found it. This is a way of explaining to Frodo how such things happen, how he came to be in the situation he was left in, as a Ringbearer. Yes, the Ring left Gollum, and yes, the Ring decided the future course of Bilbo and Frodo's lives, but it did not do so sentiently.

I believe that Kuruharan is not using this passage so much to prove the Ring's sentience as he is using it to prove that it was the Ring, not a divine force, which prompted the Ring to abandon Gollum.

That does not leave Divine Force out of the picture! Bilbo was, after all, "meant to find it", but the Divine Force element seems more visible in Gandalf's sudden inspiration to send Bilbo along, than in any move the Ring makes.

It's really getting into that age-old question of Free Will and Divine Intervention again...

[Kuruharan]

I believe that Kuruharan is not using this passage so much to prove the Ring's sentience

Actually, I'm afraid I am. It is the simplest interpretation to put on the text in question and it does not cause any real problems in interpretation later on. The only problem seems to be that people don't want to acknowledge that the Ring is a character in the books that is capable of taking action to get what it wants.

I have to ask myself why this is...

[davem]

And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.

This could simply be Gandalf's way of saying that once the Ring had moved on from Gollum (for whatever reason) it was a fait a compli. Like saying 'I'd been thinking about getting a new car for a while, then my old one packed up, so in the end it was the car that decided things & I had to get a new one.' Doesn't imply the car was sentient & 'decided' to stop working so I'd have to get a new one - its just a way of speaking.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The only problem seems to be that people don't want to acknowledge that the Ring is a character in the books that is capable of taking action to get what it wants.

Nope - the other problem is explaining how an object without a brain can think. I do understand where you're coming from, & a thinking Ring is the easiest explanation for events & statements in the book, but as I've begun to think more about it I'm starting to see that its not necessary for the Ring to be sentient.

[Kuruharan]

the other problem is explaining how an object without a brain can think.

Not a problem. I don't consider the Ring to be thinking on a "physical" level. I'm thinking (har har) that this goes on in a spiritual level. Basically I'm implying that the Ring has a fea.