LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Hmm...you may have a point about that. Hasty choice of words on my part.

However, I don't think that the part of Sauron that went into the Ring was entirely "Sauron" after that point. I think it was something else...note how if somebody else (read Gandalf) claimed the Ring and mastered it the Ring would be able to survive even though Sauron's spirit would be permanently broken.

The Ring would survive, of course. It's physical being was not tied to Sauron's survival. Whether or it's will/fea/sentience/etc would survive is somewhat different.

That's being rather picky, of course, but the survival of the Ring and the survival of its will are not completely the same thing, according to our understanding of speech.

In general, I agree with your statements, but your assertion there was somewhat flawed.

[davem]

I wonder if Tolkien was inspired by the story of The Giant who had no heart - though its a common theme in folklore. The giant is impervious to harm because he has placed his heart in some obect which is hidden away

"Far, far away in a lake lies an island; on that island stands a church; in that church is a well; in that well swims a duck; in that duck there is an egg, and in that egg there lies my heart."

In the same way Sauron's 'heart' is in the Ring. In order to kill him the Ring must be found & destroyed in a certain way.

It has been shown by Shippey that Tolkien often took mythological themes & tried to 'reconstrcuct the 'actual' story that had been lost - see his esay on Light Elves & Dark Elves in Tolkien Studies vol 1 - Norse mythology mentions 'Light Elves & Dark Elves (losalfar & swartalfar), but doesn't explain what they are or what the difference is. Tolkien constructs an 'explanation' & comes up with the Calaquendi & the Moriquendi. Maybe with the relationship between Sauron & the Ring he was doing the same.

Of course, this doesn't offer an explanation in terms of the story of Sauron & its workings within Middle-earth, so we're not much further forward....

[Kuruharan]

That's being rather picky, of course, but the survival of the Ring and the survival of its will are not completely the same thing, according to our understanding of speech.

What makes you think that? I think that the Ring's will and the will of its new master would have been fused together. The Ring would no longer have been Sauron's but the person who claimed it would no longer be the same person they were before either. I think the Ring and its new master would have changed each other.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What makes you think that? I think that the Ring's will and the will of its new master would have been fused together. The Ring would no longer have been Sauron's but the person who claimed it would no longer be the same person they were before either. I think the Ring and its new master would have changed each other.

I'm simply being pedantic, with a dash of humour.

If the Ring is being used/held by a new Dark Lord, it continues to exist. There is a still a perfect golden band with hidden Mordorian inscriptions on somebody's finger.

I wasn't saying that it would be exactly the same...

Or being 100% serious.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The only problem seems to be that people don't want to acknowledge that the Ring is a character in the books that is capable of taking action to get what it wants.

I have to ask myself why this is...

Maybe that's another 'division' between or amongst readers? Do you think the Ring is a character or not? By 'character' I mean in the sense that it can make decisions and act upon them.

Why do I think it is not a character in that sense? For several reasons, including that it does create more problems to my mind than considering it as a powerful yet somehow unearthly object. One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience? He may have sought to create it in such a way that it would have some kind of 'magnetic' property or other kind of force which was stronger the closer it was to him, but we cannot say that for certain. The 'pull' that Frodo feels in Mordor could be down to many things besides the powers of the Ring.

Though on this topic I am open to persuasion...

[Kuruharan]

One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience?

It wasn't really a threat to Sauron. It was him, in a manner of speaking. There was, after all, only the remotest of remote possibilities that the Ring could be used against him in some way. Of course, it was, but it was still a fool's chance at that, and it did not really have a lot to do with the sentience of the Ring. In fact, the sentience of the Ring was part of its defense against that sort of thing.

[Bêthberry]

Are the Silmarillions characters? Perhaps it might be worthwhile considering the nature of material art forms and their power over beholders.

[lathspell]

Is the Ring a character? Yes, I think so. And yes, I believe the Ring is a character with the ability of making decisions and acting upon them within it's reach.
If it isn't a character, than how do you explain this?

Though he found that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded it an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight.

This is Gandalf speaking to Frodo in 'the Shadow of the Past'.

The Ring expanded or shrank and slipped of a finger where it had been tight. How can this have been? Fingers don't suddenly get smaller. This is where the Ring's ability for decisionmaking is most perceptable. It chooses to expand or shrink. And when you make decisions, you have a purpose. And when you have a purpose, you have a will.

One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience?

It wasn't really a threat to Sauron. It was him, in a manner of speaking. There was, after all, only the remotest of remote possibilities that the Ring could be used against him in some way. Of course, it was, but it was still a fool's chance at that, and it did not really have a lot to do with the sentience of the Ring. In fact, the sentience of the Ring was part of its defense against that sort of thing.

In this case I agree with Kuruharan. The Ring was never made by Sauron with the intention to loose it. The Ring was never made to fall into the hands of his enemies. Sauron made it with the purpose of domination. It wouldn't have occured to him that he might loose it, just as it didn't occur to him that his enemies might seek to destroy it.
And after he lost it, the abilities of the Ring proved the best defencemechanism that you could wish for. The Ring tried to find Sauron as well as Sauron tried to find the Ring. The Ring tried to leave Frodo, using Boromir as victim. The Nazgûl were never far off. But it couldn't leave Frodo by it's ability of expanding or shrinking, because Frodo always kept it on it's chain. A ring in a ring.

Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes?

Now you mix up to things. Choosing to leave someone is quite a different thing than choosing the next person that picks you up. It left Isildur with orcs at hand. If it was the Ring's intention to be found by them, I daren't say, because it would be a rash action to leave Isildur in the Anduin. However, it did abandon it's master's enemies.
After this comes Gollum, who takes it for his own after murdering Deagol. The Ring abandones him in a place full of orcs (and in a time when the Necromancer is searching again near the place where it was lost). It was picked up, as Gandalf says, by the unlikeliest person imaginable.
The history of the Ring from Isildur's fall on confirms the theorie of the Ring being able to abandon someone, but not being able to choose it's next master.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"? Well, since you have already granted sentience, why not?

Well, if I have to choose between 'he' and 'she' it would logically be a 'he'. The part that was put in it was Sauron's. And Sauron was male. Though in this case it was unintended to give the Ring a gender and I will in future continue to reflect to the Ring as 'it'.