LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[Bêthberry]

Are the Silmarillions characters? Perhaps it might be worthwhile considering the nature of material art forms and their power over beholders.

[lathspell]

Is the Ring a character? Yes, I think so. And yes, I believe the Ring is a character with the ability of making decisions and acting upon them within it's reach.
If it isn't a character, than how do you explain this?

Though he found that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded it an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight.

This is Gandalf speaking to Frodo in 'the Shadow of the Past'.

The Ring expanded or shrank and slipped of a finger where it had been tight. How can this have been? Fingers don't suddenly get smaller. This is where the Ring's ability for decisionmaking is most perceptable. It chooses to expand or shrink. And when you make decisions, you have a purpose. And when you have a purpose, you have a will.

One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience?

It wasn't really a threat to Sauron. It was him, in a manner of speaking. There was, after all, only the remotest of remote possibilities that the Ring could be used against him in some way. Of course, it was, but it was still a fool's chance at that, and it did not really have a lot to do with the sentience of the Ring. In fact, the sentience of the Ring was part of its defense against that sort of thing.

In this case I agree with Kuruharan. The Ring was never made by Sauron with the intention to loose it. The Ring was never made to fall into the hands of his enemies. Sauron made it with the purpose of domination. It wouldn't have occured to him that he might loose it, just as it didn't occur to him that his enemies might seek to destroy it.
And after he lost it, the abilities of the Ring proved the best defencemechanism that you could wish for. The Ring tried to find Sauron as well as Sauron tried to find the Ring. The Ring tried to leave Frodo, using Boromir as victim. The Nazgûl were never far off. But it couldn't leave Frodo by it's ability of expanding or shrinking, because Frodo always kept it on it's chain. A ring in a ring.

Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes?

Now you mix up to things. Choosing to leave someone is quite a different thing than choosing the next person that picks you up. It left Isildur with orcs at hand. If it was the Ring's intention to be found by them, I daren't say, because it would be a rash action to leave Isildur in the Anduin. However, it did abandon it's master's enemies.
After this comes Gollum, who takes it for his own after murdering Deagol. The Ring abandones him in a place full of orcs (and in a time when the Necromancer is searching again near the place where it was lost). It was picked up, as Gandalf says, by the unlikeliest person imaginable.
The history of the Ring from Isildur's fall on confirms the theorie of the Ring being able to abandon someone, but not being able to choose it's next master.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"? Well, since you have already granted sentience, why not?

Well, if I have to choose between 'he' and 'she' it would logically be a 'he'. The part that was put in it was Sauron's. And Sauron was male. Though in this case it was unintended to give the Ring a gender and I will in future continue to reflect to the Ring as 'it'.

[drigel]

lath
Those are good points (Kuruharan's too). And there isnt a right and wrong as I see it. I just dont see it the same way I guess.

Gandalf's quote has weight to the argument. I suppose I view it differently because I view Gandalfs take, as scholarly as it was, as giving too much credit to the ring. But, as a reader, I know that Gandalf knoweth not the will of Eru: he was making a best of an educated guess as he could. Why could that effect of shrinkage not have been caused by the evil nature of the ring? In other words, why leap to the conclusion that it was the ring's idea? That could happen to any evil ring that is worn by someone not wholly evil. Would shrinkage happen to an orc? Wraith? It's sentient enough for rejecting wearers only? Why would it not slip off every finger all the time?

It left Isildur with orcs at hand. If it was the Ring's intention to be found by them, I daren't say, because it would be a rash action to leave Isildur in the Anduin.

Sentient and omnipresent?

But we cant nail it down either way. I just attribute more to fate, evil or good, and Eru's plan, than I attribute to the ring being its own master.

Aw heck, I dont know lol. I just think if it's that sentient, it would have found an orc in the Misty's somewheres and eventually rolled itself back to daddy S.

[Kuruharan]

But, as a reader, I know that Gandalf knoweth not the will of Eru: he was making a best of an educated guess as he could.

What does what Gandalf may or may not know about the will of Eru (and I think it rather presumptuous to assume what Gandalf "knew." He may have been limited but he always "knew" more than he told.) have to do with the nature of the Ring?

In other words, why leap to the conclusion that it was the ring's idea? That could happen to any evil ring that is worn by someone not wholly evil. Would shrinkage happen to an orc? Wraith? It's sentient enough for rejecting wearers only? Why would it not slip off every finger all the time?

I'm afraid this makes no sense. You sound like you are making an argument in favor of sentience, that the Ring is trying to pick its spots.

I just think if it's that sentient, it would have found an orc in the Misty's somewheres and eventually rolled itself back to daddy S

Not necessarily. Sentience does not imply all-powerful, any more than any other character in the story is all-powerful. The Ring is extremely limited physically, it is after all...just a Ring (as you pointed out earlier). It does require a bearer because it has no arms and legs. The Ring can attempt to abandon a bearer, but it has very limited physical tools to accomplish this. The Ring probably thinks it is more effective to attempt to dominate the bearer so that the bearer will do its will.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"?

If you want to go that way...because Sauron is a he.

[drigel]

What does what Gandalf may or may not know about the will of Eru (and I think it rather presumptuous to assume what Gandalf "knew." He may have been limited but he always "knew" more than he told.) have to do with the nature of the Ring?

The point being that whats being bestowed upon the ring. But your point is taken - I suppose the difference being the nature of evil and the nature of the ring. I cant clearly delineate one from the other to make sense to the universe... arrrghh

I'm afraid this makes no sense. You sound like you are making an argument in favor of sentience, that the Ring is trying to pick its spots.

Sorry - your quite right My intention was to carry the thesis of sentient ring further along. Were there not plenty of times it could have slipped off his finger, to be found by a wood elf, dwarf or orc? Couldnt the damage (or evils cause) been greater in their hands, rather than a hobbit? Or, was it riding along w/Bilbo to see what mis-adventures they could have together? Just doesnt make sense to me. In other words, if that is possible for the ring, why waste time and just pop off the finger immediately, rejecting the bearer? My proposal being that mabye artifacts made by the devil (or his minions) werent meant for goodly people. I call upon a higher level of Power, beyond Sauron or his products for the effect that you credit the ring on I suppose.

The Ring can attempt to abandon a bearer, but it has very limited physical tools to accomplish this.

My point exactly is that the ring is nothing without a bearer, with the exeption of Sauron of course.

Id rep Lath, Lal and Kuru if I could btw. you guys are great! so much more than meets they eye with you guys...
thinking.....
late edit:
One thing i will attribute to the ring. The ring is wholly evil. Evil is a part of our world. Our world is part of nature. Nature abhors a vacume. The evilness of the rings nature would cause the ring to seem to seek bearers. Other than that, I cant see of the other stuff.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

If you want to go that way...because Sauron is a he.

Okay, this is completely humourous in intent, but the thought came to me: what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps an example will help illustrate.

The Ring left Gollum because Gollum was no longer of any use. It dropped itself in a place where it would think an orc would find it. Given its physical limitations this was about the best it could do. This is where Eru intervenes because who should happen to be blundering about the tunnels but the most unlikeliest of persons, Bilbo Baggins.

Oops!

However, all is not lost. We still have to get out of the tunnels. Surely this silly creature will not be able to find a way out.

Ooops! That stoopid numbskull Gollum showed the creature the way out.

No worries! The orcs are guarding the door.

*pop* goes the Ring off the finger. It is about to be rescued!! Huzzah!!

#@*$!!! This critter Bilbo apparently has more going on in his head than one might initially think. I guess the Ring is along for a ride for a little bit.

However, from the Ring’s perspective, progress had been made. At least it was out of Gollum’s cave and out in the Wide World again. Who knows what could happen out there. (We do, of course, but at the time a world of possibilities would seem to open before the Ring’s metaphorical eyes.)

My point exactly is that the ring is nothing without a bearer

I think in a way we were agreeing here. I wouldn’t say the Ring is nothing, I think the Ring remains the same thing. However, it requires a bearer to be able to do anything.

what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

For some reason, I think Mister Underhill might find this interesting…

Now, no doubt, I'm going to hear about how The Hobbit is non-canonical.

[davem]

Certainly the Ring's actions can be taken to imply it has a conscious will, but I'm not sure there is one action it performs that can be said to prove that. What exactly was its 'program'? Changing its size doesn't prove it was conscious in any way, only that it could change size. Of course, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence' & the fact that one cannot find unequivical proof of its consciousness doesn't actually prove it isn't conscious. On the other hand there's Occam's Razor: there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.

Were the Silent Watchers conscious - & if so, how, to what extent & in what way? Was Turin's sword (or the Troll's purse if you want to include the Hobbit)? If any or all of them were conscious it would require an explanation of how a living mind could be bound into a 'dead' object & I think we're venturing into zombie territory there.

Of course, it could be that such a form of 'life' did exist in Middle earth...

[Kuruharan]

there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.

But then we have some rather awkward passages in the text that seem to shift Occam's Razor in the other direction.

[drigel]

#@*$!!! This critter Bilbo apparently has more going on in his head than one might initially think. I guess the Ring is along for a ride for a little bit.

However, from the Ring’s perspective, progress had been made.

um,mm having too much fun w/Bilbo to drop off and find a bearer who really knows the meaning of Power? see - thats whats bugging me

OK, the sentience and will of the ring is there....to what end? survival? Is the ring's pupose is to return to it's master, or just have a bearer? Seems to me if you take this route, then the ring's desire is to simply be wielded, by whom it doesnt matter, apparantly. The ring is itself. Sounds like Sauron didnt make a ring, he had a baby... OK seriously - Too many open questions for me.

All we have to go on are the lives of the bearers post Sauron. From that, I dont see any of the ring's will, I see the effects of bearing the ring. If anything, the ring effects pathological possesiveness and corruption, but by it's design, and the bearer's souls becoming corrupted by it is an affect of that power. Its an elegant design, sophisticated, technologically superior, imbibed with the power of a Maia, but it's just a power tool IMHO.

Kuruharan, I appreciate your views, and how you explain them! I see where you are coming from, but I just aint getting that from my read.

ugh - file this one under "balrogs wings" I mumble, as I retreat back under my rock and read the next chapter

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, this is completely humourous in intent, but the thought came to me: what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

May I recommend one of my all time favourite threads that touches upon this question: The One Ring? Sharkû's (#23 and following) and Mister Underhill's posts are well worth reading repeatedly!