Aragorn's Reunited Empire: Just a paper dream? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rune Son of Bjarne · 10-14-2005, 05:47 PM

I my self are a firm beliver in the "baby boom" theory. If the elves led by Legolas settled in Ithilien, the dwarves in Aglarond and a close alliance with Rohan. Gondor would not be threatent by any power.

With his new power from the Baby boom he could easely take the north kingdom, but it would ofcourse not be a "real" kingdom. Even with a significant imigration Arnor would still be low populatet. I do not se the people from bree as a problem, they would quickly submit to the king. (debate maybe, but no fighting) The Dunlendings would be overthrown with the help of Rohan.

The real problems would be the ones frome south and east, but I belive they could at least be passified.

(I hope I have formulatet me good enough)

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-15-2005, 07:46 AM

I suspect that the majority of the Haradrim were destroyed because Sauron chose to utilize as many of them as possible in the War of the Ring. After all, he didn't care about protecting the realm of Harad in the aftermath; all he wanted to do was crush Gondor as swiftly as possible.

Middle-earth would have been an empty place in the 4th Age.

Rumil · 10-15-2005, 01:33 PM

The 'baby boom' effect does appear plausible, especially since Sauron's noxious emanantions from Mount Doom, which I always reckoned included fertility-depressing chemicals, had now ceased.

It is noted in the appendices that Aragorn and Eomer often fought side by side on the fields of the South and East during the early Fourth Age, so I guess not all the Easterlings and Haradrim were so fond of the (ahem) 'Regime Change'. Also,might one wonder at the loyalties of the ex-slaves of Mordor who were given the land around Lake Nurnen?

Otherwise Middle Earth was mostly empty or friendly, which could well have allowed a massive expansion in both population and settled territory during Aragorn's reign. After all it didn't take the USA so very long to expand across a continent.

Lush · 10-15-2005, 05:09 PM

I'm not entirely sure that Aragorn's new kingdom exists "on paper alone," but I would like to point out that it seems obvious that it is headed for great change, the dissolution of memories and tales, a modernization of sorts, perhaps.

Otherwise, why is Queen Arwen completely forgotten?

I feel that the quote "...and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after..." hints at an erosion of past values and traditions in the kingdom, which makes sense politically.

Anguirel · 10-16-2005, 01:51 AM

I feel that an almost more interesting question would be: how did Elessar's Empire decline and decay?

As it stands at the end of the book, Elessar is pretty uncontested, especially thanks to his local alliances; in the area of Gondor, Rohan, Aglarond, and Ithilien are all ruled and/or settled by personal friends; further north Greenwood, Dale and Erebor are unlikely to cause trouble; and in the area of Arnor, Celeborn still holds Imladris and the Dunedain are at Aragorn's command, with their fortress of the Angle.

The questions I would like to ask would be, for instance, how soon would it take for Arnor and Gondor to split into two kingdoms again? It's clearly impracticable to rule both, especially as the population increases. Once Elessar's line is split, so the loyalties of Elessar's historic allies would split, and North/South conflict might be possible.

If Florence is truly the site of Minas Tirith, then Gondor must have been wracked by civil war indeed to become anything like fractious Italy...

Also, would the Principality of Ithilien eventually become independent in practice? Likewise the Principality of Dol Amroth. Would a future ruler of Gondor endeavour to assert claims over Rohan? Would Rohan be content to remain a vassal? Etc etc.

As for the Haradrim, they can't be anything like wiped out. Harad isn't really a realm, it's anything South and unknown. But they're probably occupied with their own affairs after so heavy a defeat, at will be Easterlings and Khandings, for the moment...enabling Elessar to take the offensive. Will he make the same mistakes as earlier Gondorian rulers of the South did? I do hope so!

Elladan and Elrohir · 10-16-2005, 09:37 PM

I am in total favor of the baby boom theory; in fact, I've held it for a long time while not calling it by that name. After all, as others have pointed out, Gondor had many allies and few enemies after WotR, and duh, Sauron's gone, which certainly helps.

I think there is evidence of this in the book. After all, it says something along the lines of, Minas Tirith became greater and more beautiful than it had ever been, even in the days of Elendil. So obviously there must have been a boom of some kind. Probably, a grace period granted by the Valar, an echo of Numenor in the Second Age.

Selmo · 10-17-2005, 05:09 AM

We know that the population of The Shire increased rapidly after the War. leading to its expansion westwards into the Tower Hills. There's no reason to think that the same thing would not happen in the rest of Middle Earth.

Within Aragorn's lifetime, Gondor could recover much of its former strength. I don't think that the Kingdoms in the East would be much of a treat to Gondor. Many of their leaders died in the War, the people would no longer have a common purpose, there would be power struggles between new aspiring leaders and it would be a very long time before any one leader could become stong enough to command great armies. Without Sauron's promptings, would they have any incentive to risk another western adventure?

The powerbase for Aragon and his line in the Southern Kingdom would be secure for many generations.

Is the United Kingdom of Gondor and Eriador just a paper dream? No.
There hasn't been a central government in the North for a thousand years but the idea of the Kingdom has remained alive in the hearts and minds of the Dunadain in their hidden valleys, in the tales the Hobbits in The Shire and even among the people of Bree. With the onset of peace and a rapidly increasing populaton, these groups, together with other smaller settlements of hobbits and men that Tolkien only hinted at, could be pulled together into a Kingdom, further strengthened by immigrants from Gondor.

How long would the United Kingdom last? Not for ever.
After the War of the Last Alliance there was a time of peace and expansion but, because of the distance between the two, there was a need for sepparate administrations in Gondor and Eriador . Gradually, the links between the North and the South disolved, not through the actions of external forces but simply because of the difficulties of communication. The same thing would happen again.

10-15-2005, 07:46 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I suspect that the majority of the Haradrim were destroyed because Sauron chose to utilize as many of them as possible in the War of the Ring. After all, he didn't care about protecting the realm of Harad in the aftermath; all he wanted to do was crush Gondor as swiftly as possible. Middle-earth would have been an empty place in the 4th Age. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-15-2005, 01:33 PM	#3
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	The 'baby boom' effect does appear plausible, especially since Sauron's noxious emanantions from Mount Doom, which I always reckoned included fertility-depressing chemicals, had now ceased. It is noted in the appendices that Aragorn and Eomer often fought side by side on the fields of the South and East during the early Fourth Age, so I guess not all the Easterlings and Haradrim were so fond of the (ahem) 'Regime Change'. Also,might one wonder at the loyalties of the ex-slaves of Mordor who were given the land around Lake Nurnen? Otherwise Middle Earth was mostly empty or friendly, which could well have allowed a massive expansion in both population and settled territory during Aragorn's reign. After all it didn't take the USA so very long to expand across a continent. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

10-15-2005, 05:09 PM	#4
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I'm not entirely sure that Aragorn's new kingdom exists "on paper alone," but I would like to point out that it seems obvious that it is headed for great change, the dissolution of memories and tales, a modernization of sorts, perhaps. Otherwise, why is Queen Arwen completely forgotten? I feel that the quote "...and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after..." hints at an erosion of past values and traditions in the kingdom, which makes sense politically. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

10-16-2005, 01:51 AM	#5
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	I feel that an almost more interesting question would be: how did Elessar's Empire decline and decay? As it stands at the end of the book, Elessar is pretty uncontested, especially thanks to his local alliances; in the area of Gondor, Rohan, Aglarond, and Ithilien are all ruled and/or settled by personal friends; further north Greenwood, Dale and Erebor are unlikely to cause trouble; and in the area of Arnor, Celeborn still holds Imladris and the Dunedain are at Aragorn's command, with their fortress of the Angle. The questions I would like to ask would be, for instance, how soon would it take for Arnor and Gondor to split into two kingdoms again? It's clearly impracticable to rule both, especially as the population increases. Once Elessar's line is split, so the loyalties of Elessar's historic allies would split, and North/South conflict might be possible. If Florence is truly the site of Minas Tirith, then Gondor must have been wracked by civil war indeed to become anything like fractious Italy... Also, would the Principality of Ithilien eventually become independent in practice? Likewise the Principality of Dol Amroth. Would a future ruler of Gondor endeavour to assert claims over Rohan? Would Rohan be content to remain a vassal? Etc etc. As for the Haradrim, they can't be anything like wiped out. Harad isn't really a realm, it's anything South and unknown. But they're probably occupied with their own affairs after so heavy a defeat, at will be Easterlings and Khandings, for the moment...enabling Elessar to take the offensive. Will he make the same mistakes as earlier Gondorian rulers of the South did? I do hope so! __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-16-2005, 09:37 PM	#6
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	I am in total favor of the baby boom theory; in fact, I've held it for a long time while not calling it by that name. After all, as others have pointed out, Gondor had many allies and few enemies after WotR, and duh, Sauron's gone, which certainly helps. I think there is evidence of this in the book. After all, it says something along the lines of, Minas Tirith became greater and more beautiful than it had ever been, even in the days of Elendil. So obviously there must have been a boom of some kind. Probably, a grace period granted by the Valar, an echo of Numenor in the Second Age. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

10-17-2005, 05:09 AM	#7
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	We know that the population of The Shire increased rapidly after the War. leading to its expansion westwards into the Tower Hills. There's no reason to think that the same thing would not happen in the rest of Middle Earth. Within Aragorn's lifetime, Gondor could recover much of its former strength. I don't think that the Kingdoms in the East would be much of a treat to Gondor. Many of their leaders died in the War, the people would no longer have a common purpose, there would be power struggles between new aspiring leaders and it would be a very long time before any one leader could become stong enough to command great armies. Without Sauron's promptings, would they have any incentive to risk another western adventure? The powerbase for Aragon and his line in the Southern Kingdom would be secure for many generations. Is the United Kingdom of Gondor and Eriador just a paper dream? No. There hasn't been a central government in the North for a thousand years but the idea of the Kingdom has remained alive in the hearts and minds of the Dunadain in their hidden valleys, in the tales the Hobbits in The Shire and even among the people of Bree. With the onset of peace and a rapidly increasing populaton, these groups, together with other smaller settlements of hobbits and men that Tolkien only hinted at, could be pulled together into a Kingdom, further strengthened by immigrants from Gondor. How long would the United Kingdom last? Not for ever. After the War of the Last Alliance there was a time of peace and expansion but, because of the distance between the two, there was a need for sepparate administrations in Gondor and Eriador . Gradually, the links between the North and the South disolved, not through the actions of external forces but simply because of the difficulties of communication. The same thing would happen again. Last edited by Selmo; 10-17-2005 at 05:16 AM.