The Silmarillion Survivor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-16-2005, 05:03 PM

And remember that Saeros was a counsellor of Thingol. Given Saeros' attitude towards Men, it is hardly likely that his attitude towards Dwarves will be any better. Remove Saeros and you remove a poisonous xenophobic influence from Thingol's ear.

Celuien · 10-16-2005, 06:56 PM

Idril on the throne of Gondolin would be a fascinating prospect, but I don't want to risk wiping Earendil out of existence. I don't think that Turgon is responsible for conflict between Elves, Men and Dwarves for reasons that have already been pointed out. And as I recall, Thingol's problems with the Dwarves only occured after he had the Silmaril, so I think we still have time to work on that problem.

The arguments presented against Saeros have been pretty convicing, so I'll agree with what's been said and vote

++SAEROS.

Eonwe · 10-16-2005, 07:17 PM

i am truely shocked. verily i say to you, you are of small mind if you think turgon is to be hated and branded with that dispicable title of "least favorite elf. Ever". i would first like to hear some sound evidence of blight on teh character of our great lord of gondonlin, the last bastion of strength and definance to morgoth, foe of the world.

as for his merrits, those are plain. established fairest city in middle-earth. ruled with a benevolent hand. showed mercy to hurin and huor. came (completley unexpected although completely needed) to the aid of maedhros. fell in honorable death defending his people. grandfathered teh savior of middle-earth, eariendil. thismuch is plain, and i don't think it warrents these grossly outrageous character assasin's blows.

as for who to send to morgoth, you were on the right track back there. i ask you, who was the only one to come to open war with the dwarves. who was it that allowed no men into his lands and fiefs. who dealt most highhandedly in all middle-earth? the answer to all three of these quetions is Thingol. the damage to dwarves is plain, his armies killed them. the damage to men comes through dealing coldly and inhospitably with teh father's of men. look at the great hieghts men assended too under the tutalige of nom. where else could they ahve trod with the grace and beauty that comes from elvin knowledge, if thingol had opened his lands to them? how might the armies of the noldor have been swelled if men were provided with safe domains to rest and recover from their dark past, instead of teh mean dwellings, constantly overrun with orcs, provided in stead?

as for Saeros, how is king of beleriand. i believe that would be thingol. and how are decisions made in a monarchy? i believe by teh king. thingol has proved a rash, proud ruler in his dealing with beren (insidentally, the fates of middle-earth were tied directly to this man, who thingol scourned and regected). Im sure that a freaking maia's voice of reason more than offset Saeros' "poisonous xenophobic influences", and thingol still managed to make bad decitions. there is were teh root lies! strike at the roots!

++Thingol must go.

Anguirel · 10-17-2005, 12:12 AM

Voting closed.

Thingol-2
Saeros-5
Turgon-3

Saeros is chosen to be cast forth!

Results up soon.

Anguirel · 10-17-2005, 12:41 AM

RESULTS OF DAY TWO (M-e)

Saeros is banished from Beleriand. He attempts to take ship to Valinor, but the liberated feminist Uinen senses a male chauvinistic pig and sends him directly to Mandos.

No one in Doriath cares particularly. Thingol has a lot of other counsellors. Counsellors are trained to tell the King what he likes to hear, and in this case, to an Elf they tell him that Men must be excluded. Melian makes a cryptic comment about exceptions being possible but nobody listens...

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Finrod, out hunting with Maedhros and Maglor, befriended the folk of Beor, and they dwelt near Hithlum.

However, the folk of Marach, following them, were deceived by spies of Morgoth, and Bereg of the House of Beor was persuaded by them. Only Amlach, who had happened to bump into a Morgothian doppelganger of himself one stressful morning, resisted the Dark Lord's lure...none of the Men who went east were seen again.

The Haladin were turned back by Thingol, and set upon by Orcs; and Haldad and Haldar were killed before Caranthir rescued Haleth and the remainder. They were granted lands in Brethil eventually...

As for the Dwarves, they made no alliance with the Elves, and none with Morgoth; yet they traded with two smiths among the Elves, Curufin and Eol.

Talking of Eol...Aredhel, on her spirited wanderings, was checked in Nan Elmoth, and so stopped by. Marriage resulted in Maeglin. But Aredhel gave him the name Lomion in secret.

Ha ha! Maeglin is born, and there's nothing any of you cowards can do about it!

Meanwhile, the power of Morgoth waxes greatly. It is said he prepares for a sortie; he has received more rebel Maia from the war in Valinor, and his creations grow ever more horrible...

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Celebrimbor
Caranthir
Curufin
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Idril
Aredhel
Maeglin
Finrod
Orodreth
Aegnor

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Galadriel
Mablung
Beleg
Daeron
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Huan
Tilion (with Moon)
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Azaghal of Belegost
Telchar of Nogrod
Mim the Petty-dwarf
Khim
Ibun

MEN

Barahir
Bregolas
Hador
Galdor
Halmir
Haldir

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Ungoliant
Sauron
Gothmog
Eonwe
Curunir
Glaurung

Task the third: RESISTANCE. Try to stop the ravaging of the lands of Men.

The 1,000 Reader · 10-17-2005, 01:35 AM

++Sauron.

The fool can't do anything right whatsoever. Just the other day he tried to kill a group of elves by transforming into a large boulder.

That couldn't move on its own.

The elves were uphill.

To make a long story short, the moron rolled downhill and crushed his squad of orcs! If he can only kill his teammates, he has no purpose! Besides, he can't do much else.

Lalaith · 10-17-2005, 02:17 AM

*scans tribe lists*
Very interesting, Sir AngMod. You believe that Curunir turned towards the darkness so early?

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-17-2005, 02:19 AM

I notice that Eonwe, presumably lacking a firm hand from Manwe, has also turned to the dark side ...

10-16-2005, 05:03 PM	#1
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	And remember that Saeros was a counsellor of Thingol. Given Saeros' attitude towards Men, it is hardly likely that his attitude towards Dwarves will be any better. Remove Saeros and you remove a poisonous xenophobic influence from Thingol's ear. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

10-16-2005, 06:56 PM	#2
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	Idril on the throne of Gondolin would be a fascinating prospect, but I don't want to risk wiping Earendil out of existence. I don't think that Turgon is responsible for conflict between Elves, Men and Dwarves for reasons that have already been pointed out. And as I recall, Thingol's problems with the Dwarves only occured after he had the Silmaril, so I think we still have time to work on that problem. The arguments presented against Saeros have been pretty convicing, so I'll agree with what's been said and vote ++SAEROS. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

10-16-2005, 07:17 PM	#3
Eonwe Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: In a world grown ever smaller. Posts: 678	i am truely shocked. verily i say to you, you are of small mind if you think turgon is to be hated and branded with that dispicable title of "least favorite elf. Ever". i would first like to hear some sound evidence of blight on teh character of our great lord of gondonlin, the last bastion of strength and definance to morgoth, foe of the world. as for his merrits, those are plain. established fairest city in middle-earth. ruled with a benevolent hand. showed mercy to hurin and huor. came (completley unexpected although completely needed) to the aid of maedhros. fell in honorable death defending his people. grandfathered teh savior of middle-earth, eariendil. thismuch is plain, and i don't think it warrents these grossly outrageous character assasin's blows. as for who to send to morgoth, you were on the right track back there. i ask you, who was the only one to come to open war with the dwarves. who was it that allowed no men into his lands and fiefs. who dealt most highhandedly in all middle-earth? the answer to all three of these quetions is Thingol. the damage to dwarves is plain, his armies killed them. the damage to men comes through dealing coldly and inhospitably with teh father's of men. look at the great hieghts men assended too under the tutalige of nom. where else could they ahve trod with the grace and beauty that comes from elvin knowledge, if thingol had opened his lands to them? how might the armies of the noldor have been swelled if men were provided with safe domains to rest and recover from their dark past, instead of teh mean dwellings, constantly overrun with orcs, provided in stead? as for Saeros, how is king of beleriand. i believe that would be thingol. and how are decisions made in a monarchy? i believe by teh king. thingol has proved a rash, proud ruler in his dealing with beren (insidentally, the fates of middle-earth were tied directly to this man, who thingol scourned and regected). Im sure that a freaking maia's voice of reason more than offset Saeros' "poisonous xenophobic influences", and thingol still managed to make bad decitions. there is were teh root lies! strike at the roots! ++Thingol must go. __________________ I've got bridge club on Wednesday, Archery on Thursday, Dancing on a Friday night!

10-17-2005, 12:12 AM	#4
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Voting closed. Thingol-2 Saeros-5 Turgon-3 Saeros is chosen to be cast forth! Results up soon. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-17-2005, 12:41 AM	#5
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	RESULTS OF DAY TWO (M-e) Saeros is banished from Beleriand. He attempts to take ship to Valinor, but the liberated feminist Uinen senses a male chauvinistic pig and sends him directly to Mandos. No one in Doriath cares particularly. Thingol has a lot of other counsellors. Counsellors are trained to tell the King what he likes to hear, and in this case, to an Elf they tell him that Men must be excluded. Melian makes a cryptic comment about exceptions being possible but nobody listens... RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE Finrod, out hunting with Maedhros and Maglor, befriended the folk of Beor, and they dwelt near Hithlum. However, the folk of Marach, following them, were deceived by spies of Morgoth, and Bereg of the House of Beor was persuaded by them. Only Amlach, who had happened to bump into a Morgothian doppelganger of himself one stressful morning, resisted the Dark Lord's lure...none of the Men who went east were seen again. The Haladin were turned back by Thingol, and set upon by Orcs; and Haldad and Haldar were killed before Caranthir rescued Haleth and the remainder. They were granted lands in Brethil eventually... As for the Dwarves, they made no alliance with the Elves, and none with Morgoth; yet they traded with two smiths among the Elves, Curufin and Eol. Talking of Eol...Aredhel, on her spirited wanderings, was checked in Nan Elmoth, and so stopped by. Marriage resulted in Maeglin. But Aredhel gave him the name Lomion in secret. Ha ha! Maeglin is born, and there's nothing any of you cowards can do about it! Meanwhile, the power of Morgoth waxes greatly. It is said he prepares for a sortie; he has received more rebel Maia from the war in Valinor, and his creations grow ever more horrible... The contestants: Tribes VALAR Elbereth Ulmo Mandos, Doom of NOLDOR Fingolfin Finarfin Maedhros Maglor Celegorm Celebrimbor Caranthir Curufin Amras Fingon Turgon Idril Aredhel Maeglin Finrod Orodreth Aegnor TELERI/SINDAR Olwe Thingol Celeborn Galadriel Mablung Beleg Daeron Eol MAIA/ELF Luthien MAIA Melian Uinen Huan Tilion (with Moon) Arien (with Sun) DWARVES Azaghal of Belegost Telchar of Nogrod Mim the Petty-dwarf Khim Ibun MEN Barahir Bregolas Hador Galdor Halmir Haldir FORCES OF EVIL Morgoth Ungoliant Sauron Gothmog Eonwe Curunir Glaurung Task the third: RESISTANCE. Try to stop the ravaging of the lands of Men. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-17-2005, 01:35 AM	#6
The 1,000 Reader Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps. Posts: 527	++Sauron. The fool can't do anything right whatsoever. Just the other day he tried to kill a group of elves by transforming into a large boulder. That couldn't move on its own. The elves were uphill. To make a long story short, the moron rolled downhill and crushed his squad of orcs! If he can only kill his teammates, he has no purpose! Besides, he can't do much else. __________________ "And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains

10-17-2005, 02:17 AM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	scans tribe lists Very interesting, Sir AngMod. You believe that Curunir turned towards the darkness so early? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

10-17-2005, 02:19 AM	#8
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I notice that Eonwe, presumably lacking a firm hand from Manwe, has also turned to the dark side ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!