Aragorn's Reunited Empire: Just a paper dream?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

If you want an analogy, look at the European Union, after the fall of the Iron Curtain. No-one is forcing anyone to be part of it, but there's countries of the former Eastern Bloc, and now the near East: Turkey, Cyprus etc, clamouring to get in because the EU is prosperous and peaceful and by and large, it makes good economic sense to join.

Yeah - Fourth Age Gondor: funny money, straight bananas from Far Harad, a constitution that nobody wants, enough red tape to reach to Valinor & back a couple of dozen times, beaurocrats taking over the top six levels of Minas Tirith & spending half the week running things from Gondor & the other half from Arnor.

[Lalaith]

No-one is forcing anyone to be part of it

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Think you may be confusing Fourth Age Gondor with Third Age Mordor.....

[Lalaith]

Ahem. Put down that Daily Mail, davem. I wasn't trying to make a political point, I was merely putting forward the thesis that there are now, and have previously been in history, countries who feel that belonging a loose federation of peaceful and mutually supportive states was something beneficial, and they wouldn't necessarily need military coercion to stay involved. As could have been the case in Elessar's realm.

[Lalwendë]

Some of the 'conquered' nations possibly could have been managed via a system of client kingdoms, in much the same way as the Romans managed ther own empire. Suitable native leaders, sympathetic to the aims of Gondor, would be placed in positions of power according to what kind of loyalty they could offer. I don't doubt that such leaders will have been easy enough to find, but getting to that point will have been a tremendous struggle in any case.

Nations such as Harad and Khand have been allied with Sauron and after his downfall, there would have been an immense power vacuum waiting to be filled by the strongest, richest warlords. In addition, such countries may have also faced consequences such as famine and total collapse of their infrastructure if their menfolk had been slaughtered en masse; this would only enhance the power of warlords. This is an unfortunate consequence when an empire suddenly collapses. Hence Gondor will have been faced with either leaving them to it, or in risking involvement in further conflict in distant lands.

Gondor may have relied upon long standing or newly forged alliances with nations such as Rohan and The Shire to maintain peace in 'the west' and chosen to go and fight it out amongst the former Mordorian states, but I wonder if even Gondor would really have had the capacity for this for several years.

[drigel]

Appendix A
House of Eorl

In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Eomer the gift of Cirion, and Eomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace.

Subduing enemies is different than conquering territories. And there is something to think about: the societal and economic aftermath of "subduing and enemy" (nation buiding, anyone?). But I do think that "all the lands of those realms of old" implies to me that the Kingdom, with the exception of the expanded "greater Shire", drew the same lines on the map as the Realm in Exile at it's height. I dont think Aragorn saw to expanding it, being the just ruler that he was. What happened after Aragorn is anybody's guess (fun ).

Seeing that the former Realm in Exile flourished in the 2nd age prior to Saurons renewal, why wouldnt the Reunited Kingdom flourish? To me, there is a difference between a Kingdom, an Empire, and a Republic (or any combination therof).

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, good points have be made by all!

I agree that there would've been a babyboom in Gondor after the War of the Ring. After all, humans tend to behave like bunnies after a major war. This would improve their population numbers though I doubt these babybooms could've provided the necessary numbers to recolonize Arnor, Dorwinion, Harondor and Ithilien all at once. Ithilien and Harondor are indeed easily reincorporated into the Kingdom, being close to Gondor's powerbase and having natural borders which are easy to defend. The Umbar situation still is a problem though, since Umbar and it's surrounding lands are already occupied by people hostile to Gondor. Military occupation is the only solution there, I fear.

Dorwinion is currently abandoned, but it lies far from Gondor's powerbase, beyond the barren lands of Dagorlad and it's eastern border has no defensive features to speak of. Once the Easterlings have recovered it will be beset by the same problems that plagued Gondor in the days of the Kings. Constant invasions from the east, which will in the end result in Dorwinion being abandoned again. One solution to this may be to actually allow peoples from the east to settle there and becoming something like the foederati of the Roman Empire. Allied tribes who are allowed to settle in Roman lands in exchange for military service.

I also agree with Anguirel about the splitting of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. It is clear that the Reunited Kingdom is a cumbersome beast and eventually it will have to split. It is simply too large to be ruled effectively by a single man. I reckon the Reunited Kingdom will be ruled by no more than 5 kings before it is split in two again, just like the Roman Empire was divided in an Eastern and a Western Empire.

Lalaith 's thesis that Aragorn's Kingdom was more a loose federation of states nobody was forced to be a part of is interesting, but doubtful. Lets take the Dunlendings for example: What would Aragorn's response be if a delegation of Dunlendings would come to the Big Tree (as Minas Tirith would be called affectionately by Gondor's citizens in the 4th Age ) and say:

"You know, this whole Reunited Kingdom idea, it's cute, but we don't want to be a a part of it any longer. From now on Dunland is an independent state"

There is no doubt in my mind that Aragorn would mobilize his armies and call in his proxy Eomer as well and crush the Dunlendings for their impudence. Why? Because Dunland is the main link between Arnor and Gondor. Geopolitically an independent Dunland is simply out of the question, because of it's strategic position.

The same goes for the people of Umbar. I believe it is highly doubtful that Aragorn would give up his claim to the city (and it's immense strategic value) simply because the Umbarians (is that the right term? ) want to stay independent, despite Aragorn's claims that it used to be part of Gondor.