If they still had Gandalf...

[Glirdan]

Tolkien does state (correct me if I'm wrong) a few times in the books that Gandalf had guessed that there was something wrong with Saruman. Your idea of him needing proof is a good theory, but again (correct me if I'm wrong again) he went there because he thought that Saruman knew some new information about the Enemy. Now to speculate even furher, what if Gandalf, after coming right back from Edoras after being captured, went straight to Bree and awaited Frodo there? What would that change? WOULD it change anything?

[Himilsillion]

I think that if Gandalf stayed with the Fellowship the Fellowship would have still broken up. Gandalf would want Aragorn to go and help with the coming war so Sauron would be distracted by the return of the king rather than finding the ring. I think that Merry and Pippin would still have been captured. I do not know whether or not Borromir would have fallen or not. Either way the Fellowship would have split up. Gandalf would have asked that Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and possibly Borromir to go save Merry and Pippin. After they save Merry and Pippin (if they could) they would not try to catch Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam instead they would go and aid in the war. Gandalf would have helped Frodo and Sam get into Mordor but after they got in he might disappear so that Frodo and Sam would meet up with Gollum. Gandalf would do this because he knows Frodo doesn't have the strenghth to destroy the ring by himself, he needs the help of Sam and Frodo's pity of Gollum. Frodo and Sam would have never met Faramir in Ithelin but, on the contraray they would not have met Shelob near Cirith Ungol. I think Gandalf would have tried to cross into Mordor over the Mountians of Shadow where the river Poros flows down. The crossing might be easier here because of the river. It is also here that he might have been "promoted" to Gandalf the White by Eru through Ulmo. Is this where he would leave Frodo and Sam as well? I think after Frodo and Sam get into Mordor the plot would be pretty close to the real plot.

[Himilsillion]

Something that I would not have thought of in my last post is that how would Theoden get uncorrupted from Sauruman? Gandalf would not have been in Rohan to save him. I think that after Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Borromir rescued Merry and Pippin they would go to Minas Tirith. Rohan would lie in ruin and Aragorn would have never gone through the paths of the dead and Gondor might not be able to win on the Plains of the Pellenor. So without Gandalf aiding in the war the war would not have gone as well as it did. The war would have been an easy victory for Sauron and it would distract him enough for Frodo and Sam to get to Mount Doom. Though maybe after Gandalf got his power-up and left Frodo and Sam at the River Poros Gandalf could have gone and aided in the war but, by then Rohan would be gone and Aragorn and company would already be in Minas Tirith and the siege would have already started and all would be lost. The fact that Gandalf would have not been in Rohan would have srewed up the entire war so I think that ever since the begining Gandalf would want all of the Fellowship to aid in the war except Frodo and Sam.

[Glirdan]

Awsome theories there Himilsillion.

I think another thing missing in there is how would they know that Saruman was corrupted in the first place? All of the questions and theories come back to the conversation with Radagast and Gandalf when Radagast first told Gandalf that Saruman wanted to see him.

So I propose we start our theorizing there and here's some questions for you guys. What would have happened if Gandalf didn't go see Saruman? Would he have gone back to the Shire and somehow still found out about Saruman's treachery?

To answer my first question, I think he would have went back to the Shire and told them to leave right away and told him then and there about Aragorn. Gandalf would then have made his way over to Rivendell to consult Elrond on this matter and then maybe, since he knows that Frodo is safe in Aragorn's hands and Elrond would know where he went to, he would go and see Saruman and then get captured. Elrond would then send Gwaihir to rescue Gandalf if Gandalf didn't return by the time Frodo arrived in Rivendell.

Now that raises even more questions which I'll get into later. But first I want to know what you guys think would have happened.

[Himilsillion]

If Gandalf would have never went to see Saruman he would go to Bree and meet Frodo and Co. at the Prancing Pony on time. There they would meet Aragorn and all six of them would proceed onto to Rivendell. He would not add any extraordinary haste to his travel because he would not know that the Nazgul were sent forth from Minas Morgul because he learned about the nine from Saruman in Orthranc right when Saruman revealed his treachery.

[Glirdan]

Ah, but see. That is where you are at fault. He did know about the Nine coming forth. He learned about it from Radagast, before he went to see Saruman. He would still add haste to thier journey and if they did get attacked at Weathertop, I think he would have somehow have stopped the Witch-King from stabbing Frodo. Thus, they wouldn't lose as much time as they did when he did get wounded. They would have had the Council sonner and probably would have left and yes Boromir would still have joined the Fellowship.

As for him going to the Prancing Pony, that is possible, yet I think he would have felt safer if he went to the Shire and told Frodo that they had to leave straight away. They would have reached Bree sooner, before the Nazgul even reached the Shire perhaps. They still would have met Aragorn and all six of them would have left for Rivendell. And seeing as they left early, there would be no fight at Weathertop and they would have reached Rivendell even sooner.

Now this raises some more questions, does it not? The most crucial would be "Would they have the Council of Elornd early?" What do you think?

[Himilsillion]

I think that the council of Elrond would have taken place earlier so that they could stay ahead of Sauron. Since Frodo wouldn't have been stabed they wouldn't have waited for him to recover to start the council. Since the council took place earlier the Fellowship would have departed earlier. Since they departed earlier they might have had better weather at Caradrahas. Would they have even gone thourgh Moria?