Spiders?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.

That's one of the most intriguing concepts I've come across on the Downs. So that's the explanation for Ungoliant? She was the Creatrix of the worlds, & an eternal presence in them, in one form or another. She is the Weaver & the Unweaver. Reminds me of Ariadne/Arianrhod in the Prophecies of Merlin.

Seems we are dealing with the 'Translator Conceit' again. Eru as Demiurge, Ungoliant as Weaver of the Worlds. I wonder if there was a Middle-earth equivalent of Nag Hamadi......

[Lalwendë]

Looking at folklore, spiders are not always seen as evil. I cannot think of any prominent British folktales which feature spiders, not to the same extent that Anansi is known. There is the tale of Robert Bruce; hiding as a fugitive in a cave, so the familiar tale goes, he watched a spider try to weave her web over and over again, which inspired him not to give up. This is a story where the spider is an inspiration. There is a particular maypole dance known as the 'spider web', which involves people holding alternately coloured ribbons dancing in and then out of one another, creating a spider web pattern. And I remember the spider being one of the many things that the old woman swallowed after swallowing the fly.

Yet folktales from the Americas and Africa have trickster or evil spider characters. Perhaps this is due to other areas of the world having dangerous spiders, whereas in the UK our spiders are all totally harmless. We don't have Hunstman spiders for one thing, who will actually come over and bite you should they feel threatened; British spiders merely kindly offer their services by eating our flies and nits.

Even so, a lot of children seem to have a fear of spiders, which I think might stem from the fact that their webs get stuck all over you when you walk or run into them, which isn't nice (though much nastier for the poor spider). So Tolkien might have been playing up on some people's general fear of spiders, but I don't think he was making use of British folklore in creating giant, malevolent spiders. As someone who happens to find spiders fascinating creatures and who has no need to fear them, the fact that Shelob was a giant spider did not scare me, it was more the knowledge that she was a predatory creature made large which made me fear for Frodo and Sam.

I find the idea that Ungoliant sucked the Light from the Two Trees interesting as spiders do have a habit of liquifying their prey and sucking their food up. They are also a predatory creature, and they tend to live in darkened places; there is also a misconception that all female spiders kill and eat the males. For most of his giant spiders, I think Tolkien was simply using a creature associated with darkness and with predatory behaviour to conjour up a strong concept of fear. But as regards Ungoliant, Tolkien created something fascinating, as she is a creature which seems to be the antithesis of Light and creation, an arachnid black hole which devours light, so the idea of her being a personification of 'evil' is interesting. or perhaps rather than her being 'evil', maybe she is there as a necessary opposite to creation? Who created her? Is she on a 'par' with Eru?

[Celebuial]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Is she on a 'par' with Eru?

Very vey interesting question....I'd love to look into this. Where can I read more about Ungoliant? I only have vols 1, 2 & 3 of HoME... and I've obviously read The Sil, I don't remember much that would help though. In fact I don't ever remember coming across this theory either...

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.

May I enquire as to where Tolkien suggests this?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry
Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.


May I enquire as to where Tolkien suggests this?

This possibility is an interpretation of the story of Ungoliant in The Silm, where Ungoliant apparently inhabits the void which existed prior to Eru's thought/singing and outside His creation.

a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. ... 'Therefore I say: Ea! Let these things Be! And I will sent forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' ...

It is true that when the Valar descended into the World, they found it dark, but there is also something beyond the confines of the world. Then, later, Ungoliant is described thusly:

The Eldar know not whence she [Ungoliant] came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistree of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness...

I suppose one could be pedantic and argue that void and emptiness are opposites of creation, are a form of not-being, but nonethess the possibility exists that she is something from outside Iluvatar's creation.

[Lalwendë]

Just out of interest, here is how Tolkien describes Shelob's origins and nature:

There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Luthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

This does suggest that Shelob is more than a merely large spider. She is the last child of Ungoliant - possibly something of a Half-Ungoliant, the last of the spider Peredhil, as t'were. She seems to have exceptional long life, maybe even to have endless life (and does she die after this? I think maybe not). She both eats traditional prey and vomits darkness. She has no master and follows nobody but herself; like Ungoliant she is something of a mystery.

As an aside, this is a quite beautifully written passage. Beginning with a rich aura of legend, mentioning Beren and Luthien, it builds slowly into the horror that Shelob presented to the unwary.

[Thinlómien]

This does suggest that Shelob is more than a merely large spider. She is the last child of Ungoliant - possibly something of a Half-Ungoliant, the last of the spider Peredhil, as t'were.

Perhaps she could be compared with Lúthien, who was a half-maia also?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Perhaps she could be compared with Lúthien, who was a half-maia also?

As Bêthberry noted, it is not a given that Ungoliant was a Maia. Her nature and origins are, to my mind, amiguous.

Indeed, valiant though Samwise undoubtedly was, it would surely have been a tall order for him to defeat a half-Maia in single combat ...