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#1 | |
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Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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The description of Aragorn at his crowning brings to mind the passage from Appendix A that tells of his death:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 | |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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OK, I'll be the one to say it:
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This is the chapter with the 'most' women in a way: Eowyn marries Faramir, and Arwen marries Aragorn and in each case you have a woman who is forsaking her previous identity for the sake of a man. And in each case you have a woman who is becoming lesser in a way. Don't get me wrong, you could do a lot worse than to marry Faramir or Aragorn, and I have no doubt that Eowyn and Arwen are happy and the better for it, but I find it disenchanting how the women have to give up so much to marry, while the men gain everything they've always wanted (and deserved). I find this most distressing with Eowyn, insofar as what she gives up is the very character and dynamic presence that has made her so interesting in the story. I think it's safe to say that Eowyn is a favourite with most of the book's readers, and I daresay that what they -- like I -- like about her is her tragic and impassioned outcry against the constraints that are thrown about women in her world...and yet here at the end she gives up that tragic and impassioned outcry and happily adopts that constrained identity. It is just too jarring. I think the aspect of this moment that I find the most difficult to accept is Eowyn's clear belief that to give up on her desire to be a queen is the equivalent of forsaking any desire to have power other than a very traditionally 'feminine' sort (healing, etc). It's almost as though she is saying that her desire for 'masculine' modes of power and action (agency) are as innappropriate as her desire to become queen -- that her desire to move in a male realm of action is a kind of usurpation of a role that is not hers by rights. And I still remember quite vividly my thundering shock when Arwen arrives and Aragorn marries her -- I had no idea from the text that they were engaged. In subsequent readings I see that there are clues, but Tolkien's decision to relegate the love story to the Appendix confounds me. It is a rare case in which -- I think -- his art fails. That's what I find so disappointing in this chapter: I don't mind a more conservative view of women -- I read a lot of very old books and I'm familiar with it, and that alone certainly does not make me react to a story negatively. What does jar with me so much in this chapter is that Tolkien's own view of women is such that even though his story seems to be leading him one way (that is, giving his women characters more space and agency) the narrative goes against that (that is, puts them 'back in their place'). It's almost as though the story began to get away from him somewhat, and he had to 'force' it back into the shape that he found the only one acceptable: an Eowyn who does not give up her martial heroism is something that he could not imagine (even though it would have made perfect sense in the story); an Arwen who is Aragorn's equal in the story is something that can be acknowleged only in the Appendix. So I'm not 'bashing' Tolkien for his views of women -- I do disagree with them, but it is his story and he can portray them in any way he likes (just as I can reject that portrayal). But I do fault him for the unrealistic characterisation in regard to Eowyn ("Oh, I shall be the Lady in White! Why? Not sure, I just will be!") and the sloppy narrative in regard to Arwen ("Here comes Arwen!" "Who?" "Arargon's one true love!" "Never heard him mention her...").
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#3 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Fordim: I half agree with you.
About Eowyn: I am also unsettled by the way in which this chapter seems to "put Eowyn back in her place". I go back and forth on whether this is a flaw, though. A few points that I think might be made in defense of Eowyn's development here: 1. Her transformation is not altogether distinct from the post-war transformation that affects all the characters - male and female. With the war over, it is not only Eowyn that will be putting away her arms. 2. I think that to some extent her change here may be seen not as forsaking her earlier ideals, but rather as coming to terms with the establishment. Like so many young radicals, she has come to a point in her life where she has decided that there are things she'd rather do than lash out against society's inequitites. Whether this is the acquisition of wisdom or the betrayal of idealism is an open question. 3. Whether Eowyn's change is a good thing or a bad, it is believable. The portrayal of sexism, or of sexist attitudes, need not be sexist itself; and often it is in fact necessary for the sake of believability, since such attitudes do actually exist. But none of these is a compelling argument, for Eowyn's transformation is indeed portrayed as a good thing. About Arwen: Here I disagree. I'm glad that Tolkien didn't spend any more time of the Aragorn/Arwen story. I think there's a danger in writing of trying to make each character's motivations and inner feelings as evident as possible; this can, counter-intuitively, make characters less deep, less interesting, because it gives the reader the impression that he or she knows the character thoroughly. Too much emphasis on his romance with Arwen would have made Aragorn's character too transparent, in my opinion. Also, as Tolkien's love stories go, I must say that I've always found the Aragorn/Arwen story fairly dull. If it were of the caliber of Beren/Luthien or Turin/Finduilas or Aredhel/Eol I think spending more time on it would be justified. But in my view it's not substantial enough to sustain much more development. |
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#4 | |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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I think the comparison of Aragorn's story with Sam's is a good illustration of why I find this aspect of the tale so uncompelling. Sam's romance with Rosie is equally obscured but this, I think, makes narrative sense insofar as Sam's return to the Shire is his own shocking and surprising return to the promise of his later life: the reader, like Sam, is jolted into recognition that now it's time for Sam to get on with things and marry his sweetheart. But the situation could not be more different with Aragorn and Arwen: whereas Sam left the Shire not having said anything to Rose about his intention to ask for her to marry him, Aragorn has been spending the last, what is it, 60 or 70 years of his life doing everything he can to become worthy of Arwen! True, there is a danger that if Tolkien had dwelled upon Aragorn's hopeless love for Arwen it would seem as though he helps Frodo for the sake of the girl alone, and not for the more complex motives of love, duty, honour and hope. But I think that an artist of Tolkien's calibre could have struck that balance quite well...had he tried. The more I think about this, the more I begin to think that perhaps in this regard the film actually does a more credible job than the book in telling the story, insofar as Viggagorn is a man who is clearly motivated by a dual desire to save Gondor and marry the girl of his dreams. In Tolkien's way of telling the tale, motive one comes out loud and clear, but motive two is a jarring surprise.*Pauses for a moment with the last paragraph highlighted, his fingers above the delete button....clicks 'Submit' instead*
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#5 | ||||
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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My reading is different. It seems to me she becomes a warrior because she cannot see any other way out of her situation. She ends up happily married to a man she loves, with a fulfilling, creative role. What is the alternative - would you prefer that she continued living on the battlefield, killing orcs & probably dying at the hands of one of them, bleeding her life away into the mud? Eowyn the Shieldmaiden is a great character to read about, but if you put yourself in her place, what's so attractive about such a life? She went to war not because she wanted to fight but because she wanted to die & win some renown in the process, to prove herself 'worthy' in terms of her culture. What, exactly, does Eowyn 'give up' that's worth having? Edit The King Quote:
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Aragorn begins his rule with wisdom & compassion (who doesn’t shed a tear when they read his judgement of Beregond?). But he also shows a clever grasp of realpolitik in his treatment of his defeted enemies. Clearly his mind is on ensuring the safety & continuation of his realm, rather than in taking vengeance on his former foes. The finding of the White Tree is the symbol of the resurgeance of Gondor, of the Numenorean Realms, but it plays another role, along with the Mallorn that Sam will plant in the Shire (interesting that both places come to have a tree as an object of ‘veneration’) The tree of Gondor is white or ‘silver’ that of the Shire is ‘golden’. The story of Middle-earth begins & ends with two trees, as if Middle-earth is itself redeemed & brought into alignment with the Blessed Realm, the Earthly Paradise. Melkor destroyed the Two Trees, but their images will now stand in Middle-earth, courtesy of Aragorn the king & Samwise the Gardener. (One last thought: Gandalf told Denethor that he was also a 'Steward' - I wonder if the title of this chapter has a dual meaning, encompassing both Faramir & Aragorn and Gandalf & Aragorn?)
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 10-24-2005 at 12:45 PM. |
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#6 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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[B]A good question of Davem does somebody know what Gandalf meaned when he said he was also a steward[/B]
I don't think Gandalf said that without reason. |
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#7 |
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Oh, gosh. *sniffle, sniffle* Don't you all just love a beautiful wedding? And two! *hands around the kleenexes* And the brides both look so lovely, don't they?
Shakespeare had it all wrong. Faramir is the kind of man who tames the shrew, not Petruccio.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#8 | |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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I'm not sure that Petruccio and Faramir really depend upon tactics that are all that different. Petruccio isolates Kate from her family and her homeland, reduces her to a state of physical weakness with lack of sleep and food, and then teaches her the value of a good joke. Now let's see, Eowyn is: 1) trapped in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith; uncle dead, love interest and brother gone to war, 2) physically weakened by her battle with the Nazgul and fading fast, 3) preternaturally grim until Faramir is able to lighten her mood and convince her to laugh. Hmmmmmmmmmmm....
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#9 | |
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Eowyn could be viewed as representative of Tolkien's view of what war did to a certain type of person. She is a person without purpose before Aragorn comes along, she is also trapped, and very much told what to do with her life. Along comes Aragorn, a man stepped right out of myth and legend as Eomer sees him, and quite likely this is how Eowyn too views him. He walks in to Edoras as an inspiring figure, and she is most definitely inspired. She becomes an Ara-fan. Eowyn loves Aragorn, but in what way does she love him? If Eowyn had been a youth she might well have fallen in love with Aragorn all the same, and just the same, she might have yearned to go off and fight with him, or at the very least, for him. When Aragorn is through with inspiring the Men of Rohan, off he goes, but he will not allow Eowyn to come along - she has another role to fulfill as he sees it. Likewise, her Uncle has given her the important job of looking after Rohan in his absence. In this respect, Eowyn is like the younger son of a king, the one who is the 'spare' to the 'heir'; she could also be seen as a page, told to stay behind and look after the tents when battle looms. Nevertheles she goes off to fight, and in the battle with the Witch King she is hurt. She revelas she is a woman on the battlefield as if to underline her difference to the seasoned soldiers, and in the Houses of Healing, again Tolkien underlines her beauty and her fragility. What this all reminds me of is a message about war. Eowyn is a figure to represent the young who race off to war, fervent and keen, but not necessarily understanding that death really is final; it might be glorious, but it is also grim and dirty. In WWI there were many youths who lied about their age so they could fight. In WW2, young men fresh from their grammar schools were recruited to be RAF crew, the more 'glamorous' end of the British armed forces; many of them died on their first mission, few lived through a whole campaign. I'm sure there are stories like this from every war. Rather than being a miraculous virago/amazon figure, instead I find that Eowyn represents more the young man with his passion to fight, to do his bit, stirred by inspiring tales or leaders to sign up. Then she is shown to play her part, but to be hurt in the process. Pairing her with Faramir is even more interesting, as he seems to represent the experienced soldier who has 'seen it all'. He has seen the fervent youths join up and be killed. To him, war is something which must be got through in one piece, something to be survived. When he meets Eowyn, on a symbolic level it is like the meeting of the older soldier with the younger one, and his greater experience of war, of the grim realities of war, brings into focus the experiences the other has just gone through.
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Gordon's alive!
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