LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 5 - The Steward and the King

[Alphaelin]

Yay, I got back home in time to join the discussion of this chapter! Faramir and Eowyn are two of my favorite characters. I suppose I am a Faramir swooner -- looks, kindness, courage, integrity -- sigh. No wonder I lost my heart to him when I was fourteen, lol.

I enjoy the idea of Faramir trying to pump both the Warden and Merry for information about Eowyn right after their first meeting, too. I'm not sure if it's osanwë ability or an immediate crush, though.

All swooning aside, the Faramir/Eowyn story draws me in more than the Aragorn/Arwen story, simply because it is more fleshed out. You get an idea that as they are meeting and talking every day, their mutual liking and respect is growing into love, albeit unrecognized by Eowyn at first. Then there's that wonderful description as they wait for 'they know not what':

And so they stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air.

To me, this sentence foreshadows the 'mingling' of their souls in marriage and is a beautiful image.

Originally Posted by Fordim
I find this most distressing with Eowyn, insofar as what she gives up is the very character and dynamic presence that has made her so interesting in the story.

How interesting that you think the masculine 'warrior role' is so much more interesting and dynamic than the traditional female 'healer role', Fordim I know a lot of doctors and nurses who might not agree with you.

Like Lalwende , I think there is some symbolism that can be attached to Eowyn's development, but I guess my ideas focus on how she sees her masculine/feminine sides. Prior to her entrance into the story in TTT, Eowyn was forced into the role of Theoden's caregiver, in which her role "seemed more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on", while the boys all got to go outside and play with their spears and horsies and chase Orcs. This is the stereotypical 'traditional female role' where the woman's job is to be quiet and wait on the menfolk. As an outlet for her feminine side, it is an exerise in frustration for her. When, in her despair, she takes up her sword and follows Theoden into battle, there is an element of following her masculine side. She's able to harness her 'masculine' skills with tremendous success, but finds that living through her masculine side brings her the fame she wanted, yet not the love she wanted.

Finally, when she is able to accept and return the love of Faramir she is willing to turn to her feminine side again, possibly because she feels Faramir values all of her. He never asks her to give up her sword! Now she's going to learn the skills of healing, just as she learned the skills of riding and swordplay. She ends her story with the prospect of living as a woman in balance, having the powers of both life and death in her hands. In this way, she is the perfect match for Faramir, who already has been described as balancing love of lore and his own skills as an officer.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim

So the only way to make her an interesting character whose transformation makes sense is to remove her gender completely? Eowyn is interesting and compelling because she is not 'really' a woman at all, but a stand in for a kind or type of masculinity?

Not at all. I think Tolkien wished to show (not just through Eowyn) the horror of warfare through the effects it had on a character. He could have had Eomer's younger brother, a young man filled with ideas about what war might do for him, about how doing great deeds, maybe even dying, would somehow fill the emptiness of his life. Instead Tolkien did something much more interesting. Instead of giving Eomer a younger brother, he gave him a sister. Having a woman on the battlefield even more sharply delineates the horrors of war, with our preconceived ideas about women participating in violent acts being somehow far more horrific - which are still strong to this day. And it also makes an interesting comparison with Faramir, who fights, but does not wish to fight.

Eowyn's take up of arms only more keenly demonstrates the horrors which Middle-earth faces. It does not matter if she is male or female, as she is there to represent youth, but the fact that she is a woman makes the image all the more powerful.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I'm sorry Lal but I'm just not on board with you here -- again, the comparison you are making is between Eowyn and an imaginary masculine figure (a younger brother) so it seems to me that you are still trying to 'rescue' Eowyn by having her stand in for a man. The fact that it is "more horrific" to see a woman at war than a man (and I'm not even sure that I agree with this, but I get that you are playing off of popular stereotypes without wanting to agree with them yourself) still doesn't alter the fact that you are seeing Eowyn's move into war as an essentiall masculine move: i.e. that she does not -- as a woman -- belong there and thus it is terrible that she goes there. I know, I know, nobody "belongs" in a war, but it's still pretty clear in the text and in your argument that men are more "properly" the warriors when forced into it.

So my original quibble with the narrative stands: Eowyn begins by rebelling against her constrained role as a woman by violating the boundaries put up between female and male by going to war; but she ends by announcing that it was wrong of her to go to war because she is a woman, and thus needs to move back into the constrained role that she originally rebelled against. Don't get me wrong, though, her life is immeasurably better being married to Faramir than under the thumb of Grima!! I just wish the transition had been more complex and allowed Eowyn some way to integrate her two identities (female/healer/home and male/warrior/road) rather than reject the latter in favour of a better version of the former.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

but she ends by announcing that it was wrong of her to go to war because she is a woman, and thus needs to move back into the constrained role that she originally rebelled against.

I don't see she did that. She does say she will be a Shieldmaiden no longer, but will become a healer instead.

I just wish the transition had been more complex and allowed Eowyn some way to integrate her two identities (female/healer/home and male/warrior/road) rather than reject the latter in favour of a better version of the former.

Hmmm.

Apropos of absolutely nothing - I used to work with a man who was obsessed with the movie 'Aliens', to the extent that he had a recurring dream of Ripley 'all tooled up', as he put it.

(Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm suggesting that Fordim has an unhealthy obession with Miranda Otto in chainmail carrying a big sword, or anything )

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by davem

(Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm suggesting that Fordim has an unhealthy obession with Miranda Otto in chainmail carrying a big sword, or anything )

It's not unhealthy!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Apropos of absolutely nothing - I used to work with a man who was obsessed with the movie 'Aliens', to the extent that he had a recurring dream of Ripley 'all tooled up', as he put it.

(Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm suggesting that Fordim has an unhealthy obession with Miranda Otto in chainmail carrying a big sword, or anything )

Well, there are a fair few Tolkien artists who have depicted Eowyn as a muscled amazonian uber-babe with strategically ripped outfits, so it's not uncommon...

Originally Posted by Fordim

Eowyn begins by rebelling against her constrained role as a woman by violating the boundaries put up between female and male by going to war; but she ends by announcing that it was wrong of her to go to war because she is a woman, and thus needs to move back into the constrained role that she originally rebelled against. Don't get me wrong, though, her life is immeasurably better being married to Faramir than under the thumb of Grima!! I just wish the transition had been more complex and allowed Eowyn some way to integrate her two identities (female/healer/home and male/warrior/road) rather than reject the latter in favour of a better version of the former.

This depends on whether you think Eowyn was specifically rebelling against a feminine role laid down for her or not. Remember she was originally supposed to have been left as leader of Rohan while the King was away - a role which might have been expected to have gone to one of the Marshalls. And I also think that in her going to war, it was not necessarily an act of rebellion, but more of desperation. It was also in no small way inspired by Aragorn's leadership; she sought the glory which he represented in her eyes. It makes me think that Aragorn may have represented her animus in some way and have stirred this up.

The other point is that being a healer in Middle-earth is most definitely not a prescribed feminine role. The best healer in Middle-earth seems to be Elrond, and Aragorn himself is extremely skilled in the art.

[Alphaelin]

Lalwendë wrote:

It was also in no small way inspired by Aragorn's leadership; she sought the glory which he represented in her eyes. It makes me think that Aragorn may have represented her animus in some way and have stirred this up.

Excellent point, Lal! I hadn't taken it quite that far, but it makes sense to me. And I agree with your next sentence:

The other point is that being a healer in Middle-earth is most definitely not a prescribed feminine role. The best healer in Middle-earth seems to be Elrond, and Aragorn himself is extremely skilled in the art.

Not to mention the Chief Warden of the Houses of Healing.

I think the main reason that Eowyn's integration of her anima & animus are incomplete in LOTR is that much as some of us love her, she is one of JRRT's supporting characters, so he's not going to spend as much time fleshing her out as he does the Hobbits, for example, or Aragorn. LOTR is about the Quest, not a love story, and even the plotline of 'Aragorn and Arwen' takes a back seat to the main story. At least Eowyn has a quest of her own, not like poor Arwen, who is relegated to an appearance in Imladris, a reference in Lorien and then, hey presto! shows up in time to provide the reader with a wedding and the assumption that Aragorn will have heirs of his body to inherit the North and South Kingdoms. Pretty poor treatment of a High Elven princess and the Evenstar of her people!