If Gollum and Bilbo had parted in a civil manner... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rimbaud · 10-27-2005, 07:57 AM

Good digging! Further even than your fine points, the original version questions the very essence of the Ring. It would make TH entirely incompatible with LotR, rather than simply lighter in tone.

Thinlómien · 10-27-2005, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Good digging! Further even than your fine points, the original version questions the very essence of the Ring. It would make TH entirely incompatible with LotR, rather than simply lighter in tone.

That's true, the Ring wouldn't be nearly as tempting and enslaving if Gollum had let it go willingly. (And even without a really heavy reason like Bilbo in LotR.)

Gothmog · 10-27-2005, 08:14 AM

What an interesting change of scene that is. I'm wondering if Gollum really could have given the ring away? He intended to give his precious to Bilbo, but Bilbo intended to leave the Ring to Frodo at his departure. Still, Bilbo found it hard seperate from it. Shouldn't Gollum, who had the ring for many hundreds of years, had an even harder struggle with himself?

The ancient rules of the Riddle game is mentioned in TH. Would something like that be able to override the ring's power and make Gollum give away his ring?

I doubt Gollum would be able to give away the Ring once it lay in his hand. In this old version, he doesn't have a choice. But if this version were to be published as the right one, Gollum's lack of reaction of the missing ring wouldn't agree very well with LotR.

But in some way, the loss of the ring as mentioned here seems like the best thing that could happen to the poor creature. Maybe, if the story was written in this way, Smeagol could die in peace.

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-27-2005, 08:25 AM

When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the ring was just a magic ring, a convenient device for making Bilbo invisible and helping him through his adventures. Only when JRRT chose to make it into The One Ring for LotR did its nature change - and that passage from The Hobbit had to be changed to make it fit. Rimbaud is right - they wouldn't have been the same ring.

Thinlómien · 10-27-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the ring was just a magic ring, a convenient device for making Bilbo invisible and helping him through his adventures. Only when JRRT chose to make it into The One Ring for LotR did its nature change - and that passage from The Hobbit had to be changed to make it fit. Rimbaud is right - they wouldn't have been the same ring.

This is true - but isn't it strange, that Tolkien didn't still seriously commit the version where Gollum cheats and Bilbo follows him invisible through the passages?

Eonwe · 10-27-2005, 08:41 AM

Gollum wouldn't have gone out looking for Bilbo. Sauron would never have learned the names Shire, and Baggins. Or at least not until much later. I think it says somewhere that he had to speed up his plans a great deal when he learned that the Ring had been found (the chief purpose of the attack on Osgiliath was to present the Ringwraiths as captains of the war, instead of scouts for the Ring.) This could be good and bad, because as Gandalf (I think) says, "oft the hasty stroke goes amiss." Anyway, Gollum would certainly come off looking much better than the pitieable wrech he is in LOTR.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 10-27-2005, 09:53 AM

So, what would that have made Gollum then? It's not mentioned until LOTR that Gollum used to be a Hobbit, yes? It was the ring's corruption that made him how he was. But if that is the original version, was Gollum, then, some other race on Middle Earth? Did Tolkien intend, at that point, for Gollum to have been a Hobbit?

Eonwe · 10-27-2005, 12:15 PM

hmmmm. good question. off teh top of my head, i would say that gollum would have been intended to be one of teh (to my mind) numerous unexlained things, kind of like the stone-giants. but that is just inisial reaction. i always got the sense that The Hobbit was a much less "ordered" or maybe thought-out would be better, world than LOTR. Everyone seems to be a bit mix-up (Tharanduil's folk seem nothing like what Elves "should" be like, Elrond carries red silk handkerchiefs, the Goblin doesn't instantly strike Thorin down, etc.). Maybe you could call him an imp, i don't know.

10-27-2005, 07:57 AM	#1
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	The Ring would not be as we know it be Good digging! Further even than your fine points, the original version questions the very essence of the Ring. It would make TH entirely incompatible with LotR, rather than simply lighter in tone. __________________ And all the rest is literature

10-27-2005, 08:14 AM	#3
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	What an interesting change of scene that is. I'm wondering if Gollum really could have given the ring away? He intended to give his precious to Bilbo, but Bilbo intended to leave the Ring to Frodo at his departure. Still, Bilbo found it hard seperate from it. Shouldn't Gollum, who had the ring for many hundreds of years, had an even harder struggle with himself? The ancient rules of the Riddle game is mentioned in TH. Would something like that be able to override the ring's power and make Gollum give away his ring? I doubt Gollum would be able to give away the Ring once it lay in his hand. In this old version, he doesn't have a choice. But if this version were to be published as the right one, Gollum's lack of reaction of the missing ring wouldn't agree very well with LotR. But in some way, the loss of the ring as mentioned here seems like the best thing that could happen to the poor creature. Maybe, if the story was written in this way, Smeagol could die in peace. __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

10-27-2005, 08:25 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the ring was just a magic ring, a convenient device for making Bilbo invisible and helping him through his adventures. Only when JRRT chose to make it into The One Ring for LotR did its nature change - and that passage from The Hobbit had to be changed to make it fit. Rimbaud is right - they wouldn't have been the same ring. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-27-2005, 08:41 AM	#6
Eonwe Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: In a world grown ever smaller. Posts: 678	Gollum wouldn't have gone out looking for Bilbo. Sauron would never have learned the names Shire, and Baggins. Or at least not until much later. I think it says somewhere that he had to speed up his plans a great deal when he learned that the Ring had been found (the chief purpose of the attack on Osgiliath was to present the Ringwraiths as captains of the war, instead of scouts for the Ring.) This could be good and bad, because as Gandalf (I think) says, "oft the hasty stroke goes amiss." Anyway, Gollum would certainly come off looking much better than the pitieable wrech he is in LOTR. __________________ I've got bridge club on Wednesday, Archery on Thursday, Dancing on a Friday night!

10-27-2005, 09:53 AM	#7
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	So, what would that have made Gollum then? It's not mentioned until LOTR that Gollum used to be a Hobbit, yes? It was the ring's corruption that made him how he was. But if that is the original version, was Gollum, then, some other race on Middle Earth? Did Tolkien intend, at that point, for Gollum to have been a Hobbit? __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

10-27-2005, 12:15 PM	#8
Eonwe Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: In a world grown ever smaller. Posts: 678	hmmmm. good question. off teh top of my head, i would say that gollum would have been intended to be one of teh (to my mind) numerous unexlained things, kind of like the stone-giants. but that is just inisial reaction. i always got the sense that The Hobbit was a much less "ordered" or maybe thought-out would be better, world than LOTR. Everyone seems to be a bit mix-up (Tharanduil's folk seem nothing like what Elves "should" be like, Elrond carries red silk handkerchiefs, the Goblin doesn't instantly strike Thorin down, etc.). Maybe you could call him an imp, i don't know. __________________ I've got bridge club on Wednesday, Archery on Thursday, Dancing on a Friday night!