Spiders?

[Gothmog]

Oh, I didn't mean the thing about "what I hold for true is true" the way it sounded Of course we're all here to discuss. And by sharing our own beliefs we often end up convincing others, or being convinced ourselves. Or we just end up discussing things til the end of times

So feel free to keep discussing. I felt that I had to few arguments and facts to keep arguing for my point of view. Besides, that's my point of view right now. Maybe I'll change my mind, but for now there's not enough to make me believe in a creating-all mighty-spider godess

P.S. I'd like to hear the discussion of "the One", but this might not be the best of places =)

[davem]

http://northernway.org/hgoddess.html

[Lalwendë]

Looking through HoME, Ungoliant is always given as having unknowable origins - some texts hint that she appeared in Arda when the Lamps were broken, but in the Book of Lost Tales something very interesting is said:

for here dwelt the primeval spirit Moru who even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in the utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been;

And in the commentary:

In the tale her origin is unknown, and though this element may be said to have remained in The Silmarillion..., by the device of 'Some have said...' a clear explanation is in fact given: she was a being from 'before the world', perverted by Melkor...The original idea of 'the primeval spirit Moru' is made explicit in an entry in the early word list of the Gnomish language, where the name Moru is defined as 'a name of the Primeval Night personified as Gwerlum or Gungliont'

This shows that the earliest intentions of Tolkien at least were to have Ungoliant as a being from outside Arda, maybe even to represent something which was not of Eru's making or control, as is suggested by 'Primeval Night'.

To me, looked at in this way Ungoliant is a truly amoral creature, something like a Trickster (though we also never see her take 'beautiful' form by way of charming those she meets). She is tricked into helping Melkor, via her greed (or maybe her needs?) but she shows him no allegiance. Ungoliant is a being from the older, darker Faerie.

Perhaps as Tolkien's legendarium developed there became less of a place for such an amoral creature so that eventually we were left only with vague hints of Ungoliant's true nature. Taking on board the idea that the stories were from the point of view of Elves and those on the definite side of 'Light', then there would not be room for a lack of a moral code in a creature, and there would not be room for a creature who was outside of the control or even creation of Eru.

[Formendacil]

Ungoliant may or may not be a Maia. The evidence would suggest, it seems, that it is not.

However, she is clearly not a being with an origin akin to Eru. She must, in my opinion, be a creature of his making (somehow) in origin.

My reasoning is that unless she is derived from Eru, then she is logically his peer. not necessarily His equal, but of the same level of being.

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

So, in my opinion, Ungoliant must of necessity be a creation of Eru's of some sort. This does not necessarily make her an Ainu in origin. Or, if she was, then she is still not automatically relegated to a Vala or Maia status.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda. I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

I thought of that too.

Ungoliant seem like this void of moral ruin! She is the incarnation of the sins of death! She is not only darkness, but she is infact unlight!

The thing is you cannot have good, with out evil. There for Ungoliant has to appear, so when Eru creates all she is automatical createt too.

A theory I have read about is that Ungoliant is a manifistation of the evil in Morgoth's soul, a evil that grew independent of him. Because she is only the evil in him, she is darker than darkness.

Last comment: The whole thing of beeing darker than darkness seems to bee the most important thing about Ungoliant and I think that it holds the answer to her origin.

[Thinlómien]

Last comment: The whole thing of beeing darker than darkness seems to bee the most important thing about Ungoliant and I think that it holds the answer to her origin.

It may be so, but I don't that it will be left there... You know; the answer is not complete, so the discussion can continue...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda.I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

I'm with Lalwendë] on this one, so I have bolded the part of her position which I think is the most significant, although my argument is slightly different.

Formendacil's point is predicated upon the belief or demand that that there is one consistent manner of behaving and a hierarchy of authority where only those on top are the most powerful. (That of course almost reflects the kind of hegemony implied in the unitary vision of divinity.) Yet Ungoliant's being is not unlike the tumultuous foment of Chaos, which waxes and wanes through a variety of forms and stages. This is in fact her strength, I suppose it can be said, that she is multiplicitous rather than uniform.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm with Lalwendë] on this one, so I have bolded the part of her position which I think is the most significant, although my argument is slightly different.

Formendacil's point is predicated upon the belief or demand that that there is one consistent manner of behaving and a hierarchy of authority where only those on top are the most powerful. (That of course almost reflects the kind of hegemony implied in the unitary vision of divinity.) Yet Ungoliant's being is not unlike the tumultuous foment of Chaos, which waxes and wanes through a variety of forms and stages. This is in fact her strength, I suppose it can be said, that she is multiplicitous rather than uniform.

Well, you don't have to agree with me, of course. I acknowledge that Ungoliant is a rather mysterious being whose origins are shrouded in mystery. As such, short of any great proclamation by the very dead Professor Tolkien, you're welcome to believe what you will as far as I am concerned.

However, to suggest that Ungoliant's purpose is the opposite of Eru's seems to avoid what I brought up- that she is weaker than and fears Eru's creatures. Furthermore, she must be related in some way to those creatures, if she is able to mate with and produce offspring (with the giant spiders).

In my personal opinion, if one looks at Ungoliant as an Ainu in origin (not saying that she is), it is easy to explain her as someone who was enamoured of Melkor's rebellion, and likewise did not sing the chords of Iluvatar- but she struck out on her own, and did not follow the singing of Melkor. A second, more minor, discord than that of Melkor.

Unlike the Ainur who became Balrogs and Sauron, Ungoliant is never a clear follower of Melkor. She is an enemy of Manwe and the other servants of Eru, and her workings are an absence of Light (and an absence, therefore, of good), and is thus a thing of terror to the Children of Eru- but not, it would seem, inherently evil, or opposed to Eru, save insofar as it is not FOR Eru.

I'm kind of just rambling at this point, spewing out not-fully-fleshed ideas and thoughts. Make of them what you will...