Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[Dain]

I think any race that lives forever would have a much lower sex-drive, inasmuch as procreation is a way to achieve a sort of immortality. If you already had it, the desire for children would lessen, at least on an instinctual level. I picture elves as being so interested in everything around them that they could keep themselves busy for millenia until "the one" suddenly walked in. Patience must be in their blood. On the other hand, as a human, whenever a girl walks by, I get immensely distracted. Pretty much the same said of Dwarves (who live ~250 years): only about a third of men marry, and not all women marry, though there are fewer women than men, but many dwarves simply can't be distracted from their crafts to notice or pursue a mate. No wonder the race is dying out! Men and Hobbits, I think, procede in a way much more familiar to us.

Also, the setting and style of the book is one of a medieval legend, and so obviously the love mentioned is of the chivalrous and epic sort, like those good medieval romances (though, the only ones I can think of are Arthurian, and those are all a bit sketchy...). The style is one that does not talk about the details of the romances, but I'm sure if you were well versed in medieval romances you could pick up with phrases meant "then they had sex" and which phrases didn't. I haven't a clue, but I'm sure Tolkien would, and would have used similar "code" if he needed too. So if Tolkien seems not to mention it, maybe it's just a mixture of style and setting, and not prudishness, lack-of-interest or something like that. Even if he was sex-obsessed, I think his dedication to the story and the style would keep it out of the story. His an innocent world as far as love goes--Sam and Frodo, Gimli and Legolas, Aragorn and Arwen. I think that's rather nice, and not unbelievable, either.

Went on a bit there...I think it's late... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

And now I realize I didn't notice the 2nd page!

Rather, I think what's really at work in this whole thing is a kind of mentality akin to the courtly romances of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. I see more courtly romance in Beren and Lúthien, Aragorn and Arwen (and Elrond?), than modern Catholic theology.

Exactly what I was thinking/trying to say. Time for this Dwarf to sleep...

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[Mithalwen]

Since I have been directed here, I may as well shove in my ten pennorth....

I am fairly sure that there is a note in HoME to the Laws and Customs that raises the issue of Beren and Luthien and states that while it would have been legal for them to marry without the customary rituals other than the vow, it really was not "the done thing" and why go on the ludicrously dangerous quest if you are going to jump the gun anyway? So much simpler just to elope......

As for Tar-Palantir's comments - well Dain is right. While modern mores have moved so far that procreation is sidelined by recreation! It should be remembered sex drive is there to ensure our "selfish genes" are perpetuated.
And the shorter the life span, the more urgency there is to passing on your genes - I remember seeing a cartoon of two Mayflies - one says "What do you mean 'not tonight' - we only live one day!" Consequently it makes sense that elves would not have a high sex drive. Although most in the beginning, according to the laws and customs, did marry and presumably have children, by the time of LOTR - the elves were fading and the long years were taking their toll - also it was not Elvish practice to rear children in times of uncertainty so it would be less likely that there would be many elf children around at that time. It also says in the "laws" that crimes of lust were rare amongst elves - but obviously there are exceptions.


As for Maia - they are angelic spirits - and well has been discussed elsewhere Melian had to take an Elvish body in order to reproduce. Also with the "paired" Ainur - it is a spiritual rather than physical espousal. So I guess that Saruman and Gandalf, and indeed Sauron had no sex drive - I know that Morgoth lusted for Luthien but rape is more about power than sex and has nothing to do with love and I think it was similar to his desire for the Silmarils - the desire to possess something beautiful.

As for the hobbits - well it is pointed out that Frodo and Bilbo were very unusual in their bachelor status.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So I guess that Saruman and Gandalf, and indeed Sauron had no sex drive

But Saruman and Gandalf were both embodied in human form and therefore subject to human physical needs and frailties. They had to eat, sleep etc. And Sauron took physical form throughout much of his existence in Middle-earth. So, while matters of the flesh may well have been of little interest to them (particularly Gandalf), I would certainly not class them as having been incapable ...

[Mithalwen]

Well, in theory.... but in practice ... maybe there weren't many takers for a bunch of grumpy old men

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, but what about Sauron's devilish charm?

[Mithalwen]

What about it? I can't help thinking that the lidless eye would be a bit of a turn off - even if they did love it when he was masterful . Mind you some women still think they can change men (even if they don't have the receipt).

[tar-ancalime]

Ted Hughes as Sauron?

I wonder if we could populate Middle-Earth with poets....e.e. cummings is a shoo-in for Tom-Bom, jolly Tom!