That good night: gift or punishment?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I just can't see death as a gift. Sorry.

I understand what you are saying, but see it in this context: Assume that the Middle Earth world as created by Eru exists. In this world Death is given as a gift to man by God as a release from the confines of the world, and somewhere it is stated that even the Powers will envy this freedom. Aragorn, in this world, lived his entire life by the dictates of Eru, unlike many of his Númenóreans ancestors. And at the end of his road he had the choice to continue the path that so long ago he had chosen, or to fall aside like Isildur and Ar-Pharazôn. Aragorn faced many trials, and this one was the the biggest and the last. By his decision to lay down his life, even though he was giving up some days, weeks, years, he validated his life and hopefully that of his offspring. Aragorn set an example as king, that even though he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, that in faith he would do the right thing. If he were truly going on to something better, why not 'sacrifice' the material for the spiritual (or whatever Eru had waiting)? Eru didn't make man to stay; we are to travel on. Aragorn took that last trip freely.

Somewhere in all of that I see Aragorn yet again denying the Ring - control, dominion and possession of people and things - for true freedom.

In the case of my father, each day was worse than the day before. It was a death by slices. Even the smallest sip from a cup of coffee, something that he probably drank for 60+ years, caused pain. Now, I'm not exactly sure as to his beliefs, but to him death was a release from all of the suffering, so in that context too it was a gift. And like Aragorn, he actively chose to lie down and let go.

[littlemanpoet]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Alatar. Your father was a man of true nobility, someone worthy of the respect and love that your words on this thread bear out. It seems to me that his son is not different than the father.

[Gurthang]

Well, I've read through the thread, and there is so much that I would love to agree or disagree with that I don't know where to begin.

First off, people have said that 'death' is either a gift or a curse. Well, that's a matter of view, and that view not of only death, but also how life is looked at.

Life is a gift. That cannot be taken for granted. But since there is an afterlife, death is also a gift. You could almost see it as a move. You pick up, take all important things with you, leave some things behind, and go to a new place. Some people hate moving, and are even afraid to replant themselves. They would see it as a curse. Others see that it's like a fresh start, a new experience that can be fun.

But the people who think of death as a curse are like that because they believe that here(life) is better than there(afterlife). They value their current life over whatever may be after death. People who are unafraid of death usually believe that there is something better beyond the passing. Some even look forward to when they will die, because of anticipation of what comes next.

This is where the line is drawn between those who believe death is a curse and those who believe it is a gift. In Middle-Earth, death brings a man closer to Eru. This is probably a better place than Middle-Earth is, so it should be looked forward to, because it is an escape from bad to good. But the people who are attached to their life in Middle-Earth will scorn death because they think they are already in the better place.

[Bêthberry]

Let me offer my condolences also to Alatar, even though late. As the psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross has shown, there are stages to the process of dying.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

In Middle-Earth, death brings a man closer to Eru. This is probably a better place than Middle-Earth is, so it should be looked forward to, because it is an escape from bad to good. But the people who are attached to their life in Middle-Earth will scorn death because they think they are already in the better place.

I wonder if we can look more closely at how this topic is presented in Tolkien. For instance, where in Tolkien's books is it stated that "death brings a man closer to Eru"? Eru is not named in LotR, so where is this idea developed? I had thought that Tolkien does not explicitly establish in his Legendarium where men go after death.

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[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I wonder if we can look more closely at how this topic is presented in Tolkien. For instance, where in Tolkien's books is it stated that "death brings a man closer to Eru"? Eru is not named in LotR, so where is this idea developed? I had thought that Tolkien does not explicitly establish in his Legendarium where men go after death.

To my knowledge, there is no mention of Eru in Aragorn's death scene. In the Silmarillion (Of the Beginning of Days ?), I know that it's spelled out that Eru gives the Gift of Death to Men and that Melkor perverts this knowledge so that instead of accepting this gift, men fear it. Can't remember any text regarding death drawing men closer to Eru, and think that this is Christian theology bleeding into the text.

And I like the mystery as presented by Tolkien regarding the location of men after they depart the confines of Arda. As it's stated that "even the Powers" will envy the Gift, it seems like a great gift indeed. Unlike all others, we are free, truly free agents bound for elsewhere. Also, this sets up the life of Man, as we are the travelers, the strangers, and we live our lives not content with the status quo. Think that this is a common theme regarding the nature of Man. There's just something in us that wants to know 'what's over there.' Not that that's always a good thing, but we definitely (as a whole) are not embalmers like the elves.

So, in short, with a few statements Tolkien not only sets up the death of Man, but also Life.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by alatar

I know that it's spelled out that Eru gives the Gift of Death to Men and that Melkor perverts this knowledge so that instead of accepting this gift, men fear it.

I suddenly find this point very interesting. Not because it's wrong, because I agree with it.

Say that Men did view death as a gift. Would it not make sense that they would then 'give' this gift to themselves at any given time. With the knowledge that they would be drawn closer to Eru, who would not want to just get on with that stage of existance? If they truly saw death as a gift, then none of them would live very long at all.

And that's where the fear comes in. Since they are afraid of death, they certainly don't want to be 'given' that gift. The fact that it is displeasing to them actually keeps them alive longer, which I assume is what Eru wants. If he did want all men to be swiftly drawn to him, would he not just bring them to him immediately? Rather, he put them in Middle-Earth for a reason, and them fearing death is what keeps them there until whenever they are supposed to leave.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

I suddenly find this point very interesting. Not because it's wrong, because I agree with it.

Excellent thoughts, Gurthang. My thinking is that the Gift is not something one just accepts on a whim - nothing on TV today, and so...Think that humans are proteced with a failsafe device that induces a strong sense of self-preservation. However, unlike the elves, when the body does run down or is cut down, men do not just go into nothingness, into stone or into some large waiting room, but elsewhere. A free place beyond Arda.

But think about it. You're some ME guy just hanging around. Never heard of Morgoth, but have seen people 'take the trip.' Where did they go? You've seen what happens to the part that gets left behind, and that ain't none too pretty. You know what kind of bird you have in your hand, but would you trade that - fall on your sword - for what's behind Curtain #2?

Now Aragorn was more aware of what was going on. He was done, life-wise, and think that he even promised to follow a certain path. His son was on his own, the Kingdom was prospering and in good hands, most of his dear friends had departed one way or another. There's Arwen, but Aragorn didn't want her to go from beloved wife to beloved nurse maid. Plus he had to set an example. And so he laid down and gave up the ghost as it were. Not a rash decision, and even at the end, even for this man who is a living legend amongst legends (could name-drop First Age elves, Ents, Maia, etc). Aragorn almost stumbles at the end of the Road because he too feared that first step into such a big unknown. Even if the lies of Melkor were just lies, still...

And if I walked up to you, asked you to put on a blindfold, get in a box and said that I was going to have you shipped 'somewhere,' via courier, would you take my offer? There's a prize waiting at the end...

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

...where in Tolkien's books is it stated that "death brings a man closer to Eru"? Eru is not named in LotR, so where is this idea developed? I had thought that Tolkien does not explicitly establish in his Legendarium where men go after death.

Aragorn states that beyond the circles of the world is more than memory. (appendix, Aragorn & Arwen)
Also, somewhere, Tolkien says that men will join with the Valar in the second music of the Ainur. Can't remember where I saw it, but that sounds to me like "closer to Eru". I admit it's an extrapolation.

(Edit) on googling, it's in the Sil; end of ch 1 of Quenta Silmarillion.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Aragorn states that beyond the circles of the world is more than memory. (appendix, Aragorn & Arwen)
Also, somewhere, Tolkien says that men will join with the Valar in the second music of the Ainur. Can't remember where I saw it, but that sounds to me like "closer to Eru". I admit it's an extrapolation.

(Edit) on googling, it's in the Sil; end of ch 1 of Quenta Silmarillion.

"more than memory" does seem to me very much an interpretation, as you say, Helen. And that Silm passage posits that greater music shall be played at something which could equally be construed as some sort of apocalypse or end of time rather than at death. Certainly "choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Illuvatar" does not suggest a personal rapproachment of the individual Child with Iluvatar after the Child's death. It's possible, of course, but such conjecture remains conjecture.

[mark12_30]

It would certainly be at the "End of Time" rather than at an individual's death. But I can hardly imagine Eru being absent as the second music of the Ainur is made. And making extrapolations which are within a normal Catholic's normal frame of reference hardly seems to me to be much of a stretch. The author was what he was.