The scoop on eagles

[Voralphion]

Or probably not, because when speaking about the mightiest of maiar, Thorondor is never mentioned. So probably he is not a maia.

Just because he is not mentioned as a maia, does not rule out that he was one as only a few maia were ever mentioned by name. In the Valaquenta when discussing the creation of dwarves, it describes Yavanna going to Eru for something to protect the kelvar, and the ents were the result. I think it also mentions spirits being also sent to protect or watch over the olvar, ( I have lost my copy of the Sil and so cannot provide a direct quote), it is possible that these were the eagles, at least some of them.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Voralphion

Just because he is not mentioned as a maia, does not rule out that he was one as only a few maia were ever mentioned by name. In the Valaquenta when discussing the creation of dwarves, it describes Yavanna going to Eru for something to protect the kelvar, and the ents were the result. I think it also mentions spirits being also sent to protect or watch over the olvar, ( I have lost my copy of the Sil and so cannot provide a direct quote), it is possible that these were the eagles, at least some of them.

1) I think Yavanna asks for someone to protect the kelvar, because the olvar can fight back and run away, but the kelvar can't.
2) And even if she had asked, that doesn't make the eagles maiar. The ents aren't maiar either.

[Voralphion]

1) I think Yavanna asks for someone to protect the kelvar, because the olvar can fight back and run away, but the kelvar can't

It does but spirits were sent into both

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and olvar, and some will dwell within and be held in reverence, and their just anger will be feared.

The spirits dwelling in the kelvar becamr the ents, while some of those dwelling in the olvar were the eagles,

... and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lord of the West

.

2) And even if she had asked, that doesn't make the eagles maiar. The ents aren't maiar either

I never meant to imply that the eagles were maiar, I don't believe that they are, but was simply trying to correct the assertion that they can't be maia soley because their names aren't mentioned among the few maia that are named.

[Roa_Aoife]

Now, I don't have the Sil on hand, but I'm fairly certain that Ungoliath is mentioned as a Maia that turned to darkness, and then became the mother of all spiders. (Nasty creatures *shudder*) Obviously, spiders are not Maiar, and I don't think Shelob was one, either. It stands to reason that Thorondir was a Maia and fathered the eagles, who were not themselves Maiar, and the same way that Ungoliath mothered spiders.

[Fallenstar]

If the Eagles are not maiar, they are some sort of spirits, perhaps like Ents.

Here is the quote from Quenta Simarillion Chapter one: Of the Beginning of the Days

Spirits in shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his[Manwe's] halls

[Aiwendil]

Roa_aoife wrote:

Now, I don't have the Sil on hand, but I'm fairly certain that Ungoliath is mentioned as a Maia that turned to darkness, and then became the mother of all spiders.

I don't believe it's explicitly stated that Ungoliant was a Maia - though that's a commonly held opinion, and a perfectly tenable one. In any case, your point stands - it certainly is possible for Maiar to have children that are not Maiar. Look at Melian.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About question number 4 in the beginning post:

4. i've read somewhere that most of the eagles were'nt very nice,,,who were these eagles?

The allusion may be to a passage in The Hobbit
in Chapter VI:

Eagles are not kindly birds. Some are cowardly and cruel. But the ancient race of the northern mountains were the greatest of all birds;they were proud and strong and noble-hearted.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't believe it's explicitly stated that Ungoliant was a Maia - though that's a commonly held opinion, and a perfectly tenable one. In any case, your point stands - it certainly is possible for Maiar to have children that are not Maiar. Look at Melian.

I wonder whether it would be possible for a Maia to produce more Maiar? Originally Tolkien had the Valar much as real people, able to have offspring but this seems to have changed and the Valar were chaste. Obviously in the case of some of the Maiar, such as Melian, there was the possibility of taking on Elven form and therefore being able to reproduce, but it seems that any offspring are only 'descendants' of the Maia.

If anyone can think of any Maiar that did produce other Maiar then I'd be interested to see who they are, as it seems that only those on the side of 'darkness' produce more Maiar - and even then, did Sauron ever produce any? He possibly created/bred a lot of Orcs and Fell Beasts, and he managed to corrupt by use of the Rings, but did he create any Maiar?

EDIT - In fact, looking at it, there was a 'set' number of Ainur at the moment of creation anyway, as not even Morgoth could create Maiar (was thinking of Balrogs initially). So in this case, the Eagles could only ever be descendants of Maiar, which would nonetheless make them incredibly noble.