Is Eru God?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

I accept that Eru is Tolkien's God. I also accept from what you say that he is your God. But, to me, Eru is not God.

This about sums it up for me. And I won't be changing my vote because the poll asked if Eru was THE God, not Tolkien's God.

I envy those who can accept one view of God and stick with it, as I cannot. I see too many Gods and their most devout followers are not all bad people, so either they are all wrong or all right. I do tend to veer towards they are all right (hence my interest in Unitarianism) and I would defend to the last anyone's right to religious freedom.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If that makes you believe that Eru is not God, then clearly God as defined by most Christians (and Jews) is not someone that you believe in.

I'd question 'most Christians'. I was brought up Anglican and Tolkien's God was not the God I learned about (though I knew of this God through my grandmother's fire and brimstone beliefs). My God was inherently good. Natural disasters were just that, and as Christians our role was to help out as much as possible (usually through the jumble sale ); likewise evil was nothing to do with 'original sin' it was the fault of misguided people. The role of God was to guide us, not to punish us; more a case of do good things to make God happy rather than avoid bad things because you'll get punished.

A final thought, somewhat random...Free will. Where do the Elves fit into all of this? They are denied the most basic free will of all, to die.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'd question 'most Christians'. I was brought up Anglican and Tolkien's God was not the God I learned about (though I knew of this God through my grandmother's fire and brimstone beliefs). My God was inherently good. Natural disasters were just that, and as Christians our role was to help out as much as possible (usually through the jumble sale ); likewise evil was nothing to do with 'original sin' it was the fault of misguided people. The role of God was to guide us, not to punish us; more a case of do good things to make God happy rather than avoid bad things because you'll get punished.

Perhaps I should restate it in a different manner...

If that makes you believe that Eru is not God, then clearly certain aspects of God as defined by most Christian (and Jewish) dogma is not something that you believe in.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I do tend to veer towards they are all right (hence my interest in Unitarianism) and I would defend to the last anyone's right to religious freedom.

I'm wondering if you've ever read Left Behind, Lal?

Formendacil, what I find interesting is that I think you and I have about the same view of God (Christian) but voted differently. I'll say again that I think of Eru like I think of God, but that is not the question. And the fact that there is any difference at all makes them not the same. Yet I can definitely see why you picked what you did.

So, answering littlemanpoet's question: I would still vote the same. My views may have changed some, but not my answer.

And now I've got a question of my own. If you believe that Eru and God are the same, do you believe that Tolkien meant to leave out the coming of Men to Middle-Earth so that we could 'insert' Eden into the story? Meaning we would put the Creation of Man in the Garden of Eden into the part of the Silmarillion where Men first appear in the East.

[davem]

On the 'inscrutability' of Tolkien's God:

That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, & its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. (Letter to Rhona Beare, 14th October 1958)

So, Tolkien's God apparently 'tolerates' evil (its also interesting that in discussing the Fall of Numenor Tolkien refers to 'our' world). In another letter, to Father Robert Murray (4th November 1954) he refers to Sauron's deception of Ar-Pharazon as a 'Satanic' lie (ie, he seems to conflate Sauron & Satan).

What I find interesting is Tolkien's statement that God's toleration of evil is a 'permanent' problem. Clearly, whatever his Church's teaching on the nature of evil & free will, Tolkien couldn't understand it, & certainly had no easy answers to offer. Sauron couldn't be destroyed by Eru in his Secondary World, for the same reason that God hasn't destroyed Satan in this world - Tolkien simply didn't know what that reason was.

This 'permanent problem' suggests uncertainty, even doubt, in Tolkien's mind regarding God's purposes. In Middle-earth he explores these doubts & uncertainties but never, it seems to me, comes to a conclusion.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

On the 'inscrutability' of Tolkien's God:

So, Tolkien's God apparently 'tolerates' evil (its also interesting that in discussing the Fall of Numenor Tolkien refers to 'our' world). In another letter, to Father Robert Murray (4th November 1954) he refers to Sauron's deception of Ar-Pharazon as a 'Satanic' lie (ie, he seems to conflate Sauron & Satan).

What I find interesting is Tolkien's statement that God's toleration of evil is a 'permanent' problem. Clearly, whatever his Church's teaching on the nature of evil & free will, Tolkien couldn't understand it, & certainly had no easy answers to offer. Sauron couldn't be destroyed by Eru in his Secondary World, for the same reason that God hasn't destroyed Satan in this world - Tolkien simply didn't know what that reason was.

This 'permanent problem' suggests uncertainty, even doubt, in Tolkien's mind regarding God's purposes. In Middle-earth he explores these doubts & uncertainties but never, it seems to me, comes to a conclusion.

The letter to Rhona Beare has several interesting features, one of which is this statement which opens the paragraph davem quotes. I'm sure davem knows it, of course, but others might not.

Originally Posted by Letter 211

Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III, 317. Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault...

I'm not by any means an authority on The Silm (nor particularly a fan of it), but this passage does seem to show that Tolkien himself conflated Eru with the Christian God. What is also mildly interesting to me is Tolkien's use of 'One' here.

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry to double post but I wish to respond to this:

Originally Posted by davem

What I find interesting is Tolkien's statement that God's toleration of evil is a 'permanent' problem. Clearly, whatever his Church's teaching on the nature of evil & free will, Tolkien couldn't understand it, & certainly had no easy answers to offer. Sauron couldn't be destroyed by Eru in his Secondary World, for the same reason that God hasn't destroyed Satan in this world - Tolkien simply didn't know what that reason was. ... This 'permanent problem' suggests uncertainty, even doubt, in Tolkien's mind regarding God's purposes. In Middle-earth he explores these doubts & uncertainties but never, it seems to me, comes to a conclusion.

Indeed. To believe that God is both just and merciful at once, is a problem for all humanity. But knowledge that God is both, is necessary to belief in one God, and does shed light on much that Tolkien wrote. I'd say that Tolkien did come to conclusions in LotR, just not propositional ones. Otherwise the story would not be so deeply satisfying on so many levels, not least of which is the spiritual.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Tolkien

That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, & its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. (Letter to Rhona Beare, 14th October 1958)

In response to davem: I think Tolkien 'solved' this issue quite thoroughly in Iluvatar's response to Melkor's dissonant music. To inelegantly paraphrase: Do your worst, my theme will finally, entirely triumph by including your music in a way that you cannot imagine. He goes so far as to include men in the second music of the Ainur. Not only will Melkor's, and Sauron's, dissonance be resolved in the end, but mankind will witness it.

That LotR's intrinsic conclusions are not "final" is due to its timeframe, not to any confusion Tolkien had as to why God tolerates evil. His statement in the letter does not indicate to me that Tolkien had personal problems with how God deals with evil; his use of the word "apparent" underlines this. He is simply stating that every serious enquirer will ask the question.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm not by any means an authority on The Silm (nor particularly a fan of it), but this passage does seem to show that Tolkien himself conflated Eru with the Christian God. What is also mildly interesting to me is Tolkien's use of 'One' here.

"The One" is the english translation of the elvish "Eru".

[davem]

Recently I've begun to wonder whether what we get from LotR is not 'satisfaction' a having our spiritual questions answered or our confusions & dilemmas resolved, but rather a 'confirmation' of our own doubts & uncertainties. That may seem an odd thing to say, but I can't help remembering that line from the movie Shadowlands (about CS Lewis & Joy Davidman). One of Lewis' students says at one point that 'We read to know we're not alone.' Maybe that's what we get from LotR – not 'This is the answer to your question' but ' I don't know either. We all stand in the face of a great mystery. This is how things are in the world.'

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by davem

Maybe that's what we get from LotR – not 'This is the answer to your question' but ' I don't know either. We all stand in the face of a great mystery. This is how things are in the world.'

Or... you know... we just like the story.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

And now I've got a question of my own. If you believe that Eru and God are the same, do you believe that Tolkien meant to leave out the coming of Men to Middle-Earth so that we could 'insert' Eden into the story? Meaning we would put the Creation of Man in the Garden of Eden into the part of the Silmarillion where Men first appear in the East.

Actually, no. I think Tolkien left it out because he didn't want to directly include any of the Hebrew myth in his myth. It's interesting, no, telling, to me, that Tolkien did not include a Creation of Man story in his myth. I wonder if he felt he could not improve, or was it that he feared to write something other than what he believed to be true? *LMP shrugs at his new can of worms...*