Tolkien and Norse Mythology

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

A slight clarification, Gothmog, which, as an Arthur-nut, I feel honour-bound to reel off. The King Arthur cycles aren't really English myth; they have Celtic roots and were later taken up and elaborated by the French Angevin Kings and their troubadours for political reasons. Arthur had been a conqueror of the English; so had the Normans and most recently Henry of Anjou by his victory over his uncle Stephen. For these reasons it became convenient to flag up the Arthurian tales lying dormant among the bards of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany.

Actually I knew that. Not in detail, but the fact that the story of King Arthur was originally celtic and "remade" by the Normans. I simplified things by skipping that explanation, but you're right of course. Thank you!

Of what I have undertood, this is one of the reasons Tolkien wanted to write about ME like a myth, not just some fantasy story. The lack of true english mythology, as the inhabitants of Britains has changed to much for a single mythology to evolve. The Celtic-Saxo-Norman mix wasn't satisfying enough. And even the Celts weren't the first in place, right? I think I've read about the Picts in Scotland, a people that got mixed up with the Celts and considered a part of them after a while. But I'm sure there are other's that know more about these things than I do, so I'll leave it there...

[Anguirel]

The thing is, in my view that "unsatisfying" mix is what makes British legend beautiful; and what makes Tolkien beautiful, as, willingly or not, he inherited it. It isn't a question of frequent invasions spoiling British, or English if you prefer, mythology, but rather enriching it. I know I'm sounding frightfully politically correct and multi-cultural, but I really do mean it and as a Scoto-Persian-Oxfordian I believe I have the right to say it...

Further, this lack of cohesion in myth is not a phenomenon unique to Britain. Egyptian mythology contains a host of varying faces of gods within the larger deities, and the servants of Akhenaten and Tutankhamun killed each other deciding which aspects, with legends, which stories had the greatest authority. They set the precedent. In that cradle of myth, that beautiful, hilly, scattered, peculiarly shaped land Greece, every island and hilltop had different songs, and gave particular, local gods and heroes predominance.

And so in Italy, in Ireland, and yes, in Scandinavia too. And of course in Tolkien. Hybridity is what makes it breathe; it's not a pure-bred Aragorn but a mongrel Butterbur in terms of derivation, and good for it!

[Lalaith]

An aside about Arthur and the Picts:
Arthur has no children. Gawain, (and Gareth and Gaheris) one of the earliest knights/heroes to be associated with Arthur, is his nephew, the son of his sister. The would-be ursurper Mordred, another very early element in the Arthur legend, is the son of Morgana le Fay, often described as another sister of Arthur.
The Picts practiced a curious pattern of inheritance: the kingship was inherited through the king's sister, so the nephew, not the son, would be the new ruler.


But back to the Norse: I've mentioned before the notion of the "dark hero" in saga literature, which always reminded me of the cursed children of Hurin. (Grettir the Strong, for example, wrestled with a ghost called Glumr and was cursed by him, after which nothing ever went right for him and he became an outlaw.)

The Valar seem more like the Aesir/Vanir to me than the Graeco-Roman gods. For example, Vaire, the weaver who depicts past, present and future, is reminiscent of the Norns, who weave fate into their tapestries.

[Gothmog]

Lalaith:

The Valar seem more like the Aesir/Vanir to me than the Graeco-Roman gods. For example, Vaire, the weaver who depicts past, present and future, is reminiscent of the Norns, who weave fate into their tapestries.

I agree. Both the Valar and the Aesir (is it called that in English? Asar in Swedish...) are parts of a polytheistic world, altough the mythology of ME features a monotheistic faith as well in the form of Eru. As with the Aesir (or greek/roman or egyptian) gods, each Vala has it's own speciality. One could for example compare Manwe with Odin, the kings of the Valar/Aesir, both great in wisdom. And of course the parallel between Vaire and the Norns. And yes, to me the Valar feels closer to the Aesir than to the Greek/Roman gods.

And as reply to Anguirel: I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I'm not questioning the greatness of the British heritage from Celts/Saxons/Normans. But I do believe that Tolkien felt that it was not enough, he wanted ONE mythology for the English people to which they could trace their roots, something that do not exist in England. "It's the winner that writes the history" (free translation from swedish), the conquerors of Britain: Normans and before them Saxons and even before them the Celts, became the dominating people and their myths and legends took over the original tales. But enough about Britain, as I know you englishmen know your history much better than I do. What's worse is that it looks like you know the history and legends of Scandinavia better than me too!

[Lalaith]

It's also interesting to compare the differences between Tolkien's mythology and that of the Norsemen.
There's no tricky and morally ambigious Loki figure in Tolkien (well maybe Osse at a stretch) and no shining Baldur either. Yes, Manwe and Odin are both sky gods, but their spouses are quite different. Elbereth is also associated with the sky, while Frigg is a hearth/fertility goddess. Aegir is a rather more sinister figure than Ulmo.
Tulkas is a kind of cross between Tyr and Thor, I think.
But Norse mythology is itself also something of a hybrid. The Vanir were clearly a different set of gods, (perhaps worshipped by a conquered or neighbouring people - they feel quite Finnish to me, although I'm no expert) which became amalgamated with the Viking pantheon. Gods like Ullr were also probably from an earlier pantheon than Odin and co.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Lalaith: I agree. Both the Valar and the Aesir (is it called that in English? Asar in Swedish...) are parts of a polytheistic world, altough the mythology of ME features a monotheistic faith as well in the form of Eru. As with the Aesir (or greek/roman or egyptian) gods, each Vala has it's own speciality. One could for example compare Manwe with Odin, the kings of the Valar/Aesir, both great in wisdom. And of course the parallel between Vaire and the Norns. And yes, to me the Valar feels closer to the Aesir than to the Greek/Roman gods.

Manwe is much more alike the god Zeus/Jupiter than Odin allthough resemblance can be found. You will seldom find a characther in the works of Tolkien who is identical with one from the Norse Mythology. This is because the heroes and Gods of Norse Mythology don't have morals. . . If you look at Odin he uses and kills innocent people in order for him to become more powerfull and wise.

He was wizard, harper (or what they are called), warrior, Ring Lord, All knowing god and trickster. He is kind of a mix of Sauron and Gandalf. He wandered all the worlds in search of wisdom and absolute power. Gandalf in the way that he wanders and talks to all beeings and therby gain knowledge. He like Gandalf is re-incarnatet and becomes even more powerfull.
Sauron end up only beeing one eye becouse he is so obsesed with power that he risk's every thing but the eye to get it. Odin becomes one eyed because he is so obsesed that he gives it to be allowed to drink frome the well of wisdome. . .

But I must ask you Rune, are we supposed to concentrate on on the Volsung Saga here or is the thread open for every kind of discussions? Comparing Rohirrim with the Vikings could be interesting as that's a connection often made. But the thread could end up a bit...chaotic. It's a wide topic, Norse Myths and Tolkien's work.

I know it is a wide topic, but it is a risk we must take in order to get a good discussion. I mentioned the Volsung Saga because it is loaded with resemblance and because it is one of the greates sagas. Allso if we start one place we might be able to controll the discusion a bit, but people are allowed to talk about whatever parts of the mytholohy they find interesting.