What's the Worst Thing Characters had to Face in Middle Earth?

[Farael]

Well Boromir, you have some valid points in there, but I have to say I disagree. I can't get you the exact quote because my LOTR books are in Spanish, but in more than one instance Frodo says that the ring was given to him and therefore it is his obligation to bear with it. So in a way, I think that Frodo believes that someone (or something) larger than himself chose his destiny and that it included carrying the ring on the journey. Even if it was a hopeless journey. But as I said before, I believe (and it might just be me) that his greatest difficulty was knowing that even if he succeeded he would probably never come back to see the results of his effort.

Luthien makes a very valid point when she says that the most difficult thing for all the characters was to overcome the "love of self". That's in a way, what I mean. Frodo is making the ultimate sacrifice a living creature can make, namely his or her own life. Yet instead of falling in a battle which takes a comparatively short time (after all, a single battle cannot take longer than a whole day, specially when you are fighting with swords and arrows) Frodo faces a long agony which lasts for months, since he leaves The Shire up until he destroys the ring. As I said, he is saved in the end, but Frodo did not know that would happen and to know that he would die if he failed and die if he succeeded must have been the kind of mental anguish that would drive a man crazy.

Also, I think Boromir said that Frodo could have let the "greater" men (or elves) take care of this whole mess, yet by being able to overcome this anguish Frodo shows that he is as great or even greater than all of the other characters.

I guess this topic is fairly personal, as a good story lends itself ot many interpretations and there's no "right" way to interpret a story, yet that's what I think regarding Frodo and The Ring.

[Boromir88]

I guess this topic is fairly personal, as a good story lends itself ot many interpretations and there's no "right" way to interpret a story, yet that's what I think regarding Frodo and The Ring.

Yeah, there really is no right or wrong, it's just fun to hear ideas and find things you never considered before.

I'm going to expand on my post about Frodo above, and say something kind of similar to Luthien's "love of self," and that another thing most of the characters (perhaps not all but certainly The Fellowship, Denethor, Theoden...etc) all struggle with is hope.

To lose hope is to lose everything, if you don't have hope what do you have? And I think a lot of the characters struggle with hope.

If my post about Frodo wasn't exactly clear, I hope this will make it better, but I was getting at that Frodo had to battle with losing hope. After deciding to take the Ring to Mount Doom (he may have seen it as his "fate," but he still makes the decision himself), he has to struggle with sticking with that decision. The Ring is sort of a speed bump (grant it a very big speed bump) in the road. Frodo knows the road will be difficult, and the Ring certainly has a big part to play in that. However, despite the Ring, Frodo still has to endure wounds from the Witch-King, Shelob, he has to make the long physical journey to Mordor and into Mount Doom, he has to deal with Gollum, and the Ring is like another bump in the road. The real battle Frodo has to face is losing hope. To turn back and "throw in the towel" so to say. To think, that it's not possible anymore, and he can't do it. When he does lose hope, Sam is there to give it back to him. So, where I was trying to go in the post above (perhaps I didn't really explain it well I think) was Frodo biggest thing to overcome would be hope....to lose it, or not? If he loses hope, it's over...but with hope, anything's possible.

There are also other characters who struggle with losing hope, or not losing it. For some examples Denethor. He went mad and burned himself because he lost hope. He believed it was all over, Sauron was on his doorstep, and victory over him was no longer possible. In Denethor's case, his battle with "hope," he loses it, and it causes his downfall.

Then we have Theoden who triumphs. Instead of going mad and saying it's the end of the world like Denethor, when he's faced with his kingdom on the brink of destruction, Theoden puts his hope and trust with Gandalf and Aragorn. Believing that they will lead him through this. Scattered through The King of the Golden Hall and Helm's Deep, we hear "Now there is hope of victory," and "hope in Gandalf, he knows what he's doing."

Boromir loses hope, but what makes him different from Denethor is he realizes his mistakes. Boromir didn't think the Ring should go to a halfling, he saw no "hope in victory" in giving the Ring to Frodo and waltzing into Mordor. So, he falls and tries to take the Ring. But, what's different from his paps is he realizes he has failed and he doesn't lose hope for Gondor..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people." On his deathbed he puts his hope in Aragorn to save his City.

Gimli was told by Galadriel when he received three strands of her hair that on one path there's darkness, the other path lies hope. That he would have to chose which way to go when the time comes, and if he follows with hope, his hand should flow with gold yet gold will have no dominion over him.

In the Siege of Gondor, Gandalf encourages the men to continue to fight, and continue to have hope.

So, basically, after all this, I'm saying to add on with Luthien's "love of self," that at one point in time all the characters have to struggle with hope. Do they give in to Sauron and his dominating power? Or do they put their hope in faith in people like Gandalf...or Frodo and think that there still is a chance for victory?

Now I'm all "hoped" out.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Quote:
Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess
I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves.

Quote:
Originally posted by LMP

This has a sense (to me) built in of being its own reward. Do you see it that way? You see, it suggests that they never lost hope, which means that it wasn't really that bad, because even if they couldn't have it for themselves, they received back to themselves a sense of having done well and becoming part of those who are giving a great gift to those who remain. This doesn't seem bad or sad, yet somehow, in Tolkien this has a sense of being bittersweet and filled with Loss (capital 'l'). Why is that?

I suppose overcoming self is rewarding in itself...but the fact of accomplishing it would be so much more than a mere feel-good-about-yourself award. There was no guarantee that their goal would be accomplished even after all their sacrificing, so that "reward" wasn't really theirs. To me, the greater reward received would be the knowledge that you are actively fulfilling the plan for your life. I don't mean the plan you, yourself, choose for your life...but the one for which you were born, the one that someone greater (God) planned for you. The satisification and sense of completion that comes from this connection is reward.

Farael says:

So in a way, I think that Frodo believes that someone (or something) larger than himself chose his destiny and that it included carrying the ring on the journey

Also, the opportunities to lose hope and give up along the way were numerous and almost overwhelming for LOTR characters...yet, over and over, they made the choice to deny self. It seems that everytime one of the characters wanted to give up, something happened to renew their hope and courage or someone else helped to refresh their resolve.

For example, in The Land of Shadow chapter:

Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him.

To live this type of life...to continue making choices to do the right thing time after time, one needs hopeful reminders and assurances of something beyond self. So, it is true LMP, that hope need never be lost if you consistently make the choices that keep it alive.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Luthien

I don't mean the plan you, yourself, choose for your life...but the one for which you were born, the one that someone greater (God) planned for you. The satisification and sense of completion that comes from this connection is reward.

But God/Eru is not 'present' for Frodo. He knows nothing about anything 'beyond the circles of the World'. It seems that Frodo is constantly 'backed into a corner' & the choices he makes are between going ahead with the Quest or just giving up & losing everything. He has no concept of 'Heaven' or that he is 'serving Eru'. In a real sense his case is worse than that of Job - Job at least knew of & had faith in God (petty & tetchy as the God of the book of Job may be).

What I'm saying is that any sense of 'satisfaction' & 'completion' is absent from Frodo's experience during his life in Middle-earth. Eru may as well not exist at all - if Middle-earth was an entirely 'pagan' world, or a world which came into being 'randomly' Frodo would be in the same psychological position. He does nothing for Eru - he acts only for others around him. Even when he goes to the Havens he doesn't see it as a 'stage' in a journey towards 'Heaven' or in his service to God. The end of Frodo's journey (in his own mind) is death. Tolkien suggested in one of his letters that the journey into the West may be read as an allegory (yes, he uses that word) of death.

As somene recently suggested to me, Frodo is like one of the young men of Tolkien's generation who went to fight in WW1. Most of them went not because they felt they were living out God's plan for them, but because they felt obligated to 'do their bit' for their country, their family & ther friends. Many of them lost their lives, their health, their hope, but they felt they had 'done the right thing'. Like Frodo, they had given up the things they loved & cared for, not for God, or for a heavenly reward, but simply 'so that others could keep them'.

[Kuruharan]

What made this the worst thing? ....as compared to losing the Shire, for example? Or do you see that as tied up in the Ring?

Frodo succumbing to the Ring (sooner than he did) would have meant utter failure for everyone. The Shire would have been lost anyway. It would have been turned into a strip mine if Frodo had failed or done nothing. The Shire was gone for Frodo.

Do we ever face that kind of thing? ... at least by analogy?

Yes.

However, I think Frodo's biggest problem he faces is actually taking the Ring, which takes great courage.

I'm afraid I must disagree with this. Gandalf says (when he is talking about Pippin joining the Fellowship) that Frodo did not really know what he was getting himself into. While it was undoubtedly an act of courage, it was not done with foreknowledge.

Frodo had to battle with losing hope.

I'm not clear that by the end (particularly after his Cirith Ungol experience) Frodo had hope. I think it was more of an act of will on his part to continue the journey and resist the Ring without hope.

[Farael]

Well, I'm afraid I must disagree with Kuruharan. I think he still had hope, but of the 'subconscious' type. What I mean by that is that his senses told him "it's all over" yet his heart knew that he had to go on. Of course it takes a HUGE will to follow your heart when your brain says you've lost already, but I think Frodo never lost hope. If he had, he would have hidden the ring and run away, yet he kept on going, in spite of the pain, thirst and hunger (oh yeah, and in spite of all those lovely fellows known as "orcs")

Regarding Davem's comments, I don't know if Frodo was aware of a higher being than himself, yet he was definetly aware of a sense of destiny. I don't know who Frodo believed had set his destiny but I'm as certain as one can be with an interpretation of a story (which is not really very certain) that Frodo felt it was his destiny to go on with the Quest to destroy the ring. I can't remember the exact quote, but I do remember Frodo saying in a couple of instances that the Ring was his burden to carry (and he did not only say it out of the selfishness the ring itself imposed on the ring bearers, I think he really meant what he said)
Still, I do agree that if he went on with that destiny it was because he wanted to help others and not himself. As I said before, he did not think he would survive, he was making that sacrifice for everyone else and THAT (to me) is the worst thing Frodo had to face.

On a bit of a sidenote, I love this kind of discussions! =)

Farael

[davem]

Originally Posted by Farael

Well, I'm afraid I must disagree with Kuruharan. I think he still had hope, but of the 'subconscious' type. What I mean by that is that his senses told him "it's all over" yet his heart knew that he had to go on.

Possibly he did. One thing I recall from HoM-e is a passage from an early draft of 'Many Partings'. At the funeral feast for Theoden Gandalf declares:

and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire & Samwise his servant. And the Bards & the Minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthan Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope & Hope unquenchable.'

'Endurance beyond Hope' is, I think, pretty apposite for Frodo, as is 'Hope unquenchable' for Sam. In short, I think Kuruharan is correct about Frodo - but, as I say, that's something that must remain a matter of opinion....

[Lalwendë]

I think most of the characters had to face terrors, whether psychological or physical - it is a book about "the inevitability of death". Just one of the worst dilemmas/upsets faced was that faced by Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn. This is no simple love story, Tolkien shows just how difficult this was for all concerned. At the heart of the story of this trio of characters is the fact that if Arwen stays in Middle-earth she will become mortal, and that has greater consequences than the fact that she will one day die, it also means that this is a permanent sundering of her relationship with her father without any hope of being reunited after death.

Whichever decision Arwen makes, she is doomed to be permanently parted from either her father or her betrothed. Elrond knows that if his daughter marries Aragorn her happiness will only be bittersweet, and Aragorn knows that his love for Arwen is likely to take her away from her father and her family for good. I can imagine that Elrond more than kicked himself when his daughter met Aragorn! And the possibility of such situations is probably one of the many reasons why Elves do not mix with Men.

One interesting thing about the relationship is that Elrond does not want the pair to marry until Aragorn has regained his Kingship; for Elrond this would mean not only that the kingdom of Gondor be a safer place for his daughter to live, but the whole of Middle-earth would be safer too, as he must have known that with Sauron still in existence, it would have been nigh on impossible for Aragorn to reunify the kingdoms to any degree. Aragorn and Arwen seem to take Elrond's decision stoically. Arwen does not simply run off with Aragorn. This suggests that either she is trusting to 'fate' to make the decision to remain in Middle-earth or not, or that she has incredible faith and trust in Aragorn that he will achieve what has been set out for him. For Aragorn the impact this must have on him is to put tremendous pressure on him to succeed, yet he must have always borne in mind that if he did succeed, he would also bring great grief for Arwen.