What's the Worst Thing Characters had to Face in Middle Earth?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Tolkien didn't have a nice picture in mind for Denethor, noting that he became corrupted by politics and in many cases compared him to Saruman. That may be because of all this thrust upon him. However, Theoden is faced with the exact same dilemmas and was able to triumph.

Tolkien does however leave us with enough information to figure out that Denethor is not an evil Man, just one who chooses the wrong way of dealing with his problems; in the appendices he make a point of telling us about the early death of his wife and from that we can draw our own conclusions.

Comparing Denethor to Theoden is a good comparison to make. The different reactions of each to grief and to a threatened realm demonstrate how people can react in very different ways in similar situations and it does make a point that perhaps the stronger person tackles their grief rather than retreating into it. It might be useful to compare two Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

I'm not sure that Tolkien is telling us that it is absolutely wrong to react in a certain way to a situation, more that he shows us what causes people to react in certain ways, and then the consequences of their reactions. We can then make our own minds up, and the characters become more tragic for not simply being there to represent a moral lesson.

[Farael]

Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

But then, you have to take into account the purpose for which they carried the Ring. Bilbo carried it for a long time for no special purpose besides avoiding uncomfortable situations by disapearing and Sam used the ring only to save Frodo, his Master. In both cases the ring is helping them succeed and that's what the ring itself wants. On the other hand, Frodo is set to destroy the ring and of course, the Ring will do whatever it can to oppose it. You should not forget that the Ring has a sort of conscience of its own and in more than one instance we see it making choices, as (for example) slipping of the finger of Isidur when he tries to swim away from the Orcs, or becoming heavier and heavier as Frodo approaches Mt. Doom. I believe that it's because of the Ring that Frodo finds it hard to cope with the experience of being a Ringbearer. After all, the ring helps Bilbo and Sam yet it only opposes Frodo.

[Boromir88]

Comparing Denethor to Theoden is a good comparison to make. The different reactions of each to grief and to a threatened realm demonstrate how people can react in very different ways in similar situations and it does make a point that perhaps the stronger person tackles their grief rather than retreating into it.

I've always liked to compare the two, because they are faced with similar situations. What's interesting is we hear of Denethor's greater days and being a much better man in the past, and we see his drastic spiral downwards in ROTK. In Theoden's case we vaguely see and hear his low point (being in the hands of Saruman and listening to Grima) and then his rise to triumph. So, the way they are portrayed in the books, and how they once were are polar opposites.

The only thing I can see as to why Theoden was able to get out of his hole, and Denethor wasn't was because Theoden put his hope and trust into Gandalf. Where Denethor did not, of course, as we know, he has disliked Gandalf since the earlier days.

You should not forget that the Ring has a sort of conscience of its own and in more than one instance we see it making choices, as (for example) slipping of the finger of Isidur when he tries to swim away from the Orcs, or becoming heavier and heavier as Frodo approaches Mt. Doom.

Also, when it slips of Gollum's hand, and Frodo decides to put it on a chain because Bilbo told him it had a tendancy to slip off. It seems that when the Ring is done with it's current bearer, it tries to get away. Once the bearer can be no more help or aid to the ring, it tries to get away, by slipping off, or in Frodo's case, since he wore it on a chain by becoming heavier.

I hope I'm not getting too far off topic, so I think I'll, ask about Eowyn? For she's always been an interesting character, and I've never really been able to fully grasp her. What was her biggest thing to overcome? Would it be getting over the early lust of Aragorn? And she gets over that lust when she falls in love and marries Faramir?

[Kuruharan]

What was her biggest thing to overcome? Would it be getting over the early lust of Aragorn?

I'm not sure "lust" is the right word. Didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn did not really change that much but that she grew to understand them better?

(I might be remembering wrong, but I could swear that Tolkien said something like that.)

[Boromir88]

I'm not sure "lust" is the right word. Didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn did not really change that much but that she grew to understand them better?

I'm not sure what Tolkien said on the matter, but I think you're right and saying lust isn't a right word. I think Eowyn was just misled by her own feelings in believing that Aragorn could be something for her that he couldn't. I think "unrequited love" would be a better term...ahh Shakespeare.

[Farael]

Also, when it slips of Gollum's hand, and Frodo decides to put it on a chain because Bilbo told him it had a tendancy to slip off. It seems that when the Ring is done with it's current bearer, it tries to get away. Once the bearer can be no more help or aid to the ring, it tries to get away, by slipping off, or in Frodo's case, since he wore it on a chain by becoming heavier.

Exactly

hope I'm not getting too far off topic, so I think I'll, ask about Eowyn? For she's always been an interesting character, and I've never really been able to fully grasp her. What was her biggest thing to overcome? Would it be getting over the early lust of Aragorn? And she gets over that lust when she falls in love and marries Faramir?

Awww I was liking the direction the thread was taking. Now, regarding Eowyn, I think she was also suffering by the death of Theoden's son (which would be Eowyn's cousin, right?), the bad times Rohan was going to and the decay of Theoden himself. When Gandalf helps Theoden recover, Eowyn is already hurt and furthermore the shadows cast by Sauron are not gone and so her heart is afflicted. She wants to help the cause by fighting in the war yet, as a woman, she's not allowed to do so and it adds to her grief. She goes to battle anyway and she kills the Lord of the Nazghul yet when she recovers from the wounds she suffered she finds Theoden dead and a very possible defeat in the hands of Mordor.

If all that wasn't enough, she falls for Argorn, but I think that was because he was THE warrior of his time. She was in love with Argorn the fighter, the one who fought side by side with Theoden and was the last hope for Gondor and the whole of middle earth, not by Argorn the man (who also happened to be in love with Arwen)

After Sauron falls the darkness lifts from her heart and she opens her eyes to Faramir (who also was a great captain of his army) and the rest is history

At least, that's my take on Eowyn, one of my favourite characters.

Edit: Posted at the same time than Kuruharan. I can't really recall Tolkien saying that, but maybe it was not on LoTR