The True Master.

[Boromir88]

This is from the movie. Sauron had a physical body even without the Ring, and he was perfectly capable of surviving without it. In fact, he very nearly overthrew Middle-earth without it. Thank deus for his machina.~obloquy

Yes, I know that, I mean he wouldn't be able to survive (in a physical form) if the ring was destroyed, or if someone else mastered it. He would then remain just a shadow, never able to take form again.

[Eonwe]

what about when gandalf says to whichever hobbit merry, or pippin, that sauron is the one true Lord of teh Ring (council of elrond, i believer, when said hobbit says something to the effect of "hail frodo, lord of the ring".)

i think looking at it in a practical manner is best. sauron makes the ring for one purpose: to dominate The Three. he has to put enough of himself in the Ring to effectively accomplish this. its his will. your will is what dominates you. of course he was being run by his ring, because it had a great portion of his will, or potency or whatever. but the idea of the ring mastering him i don't agree with. the ring is just a projection of whatever he is trying to do in the first place.

that is why the ring is always trying to get back to sauron.

however, i think that that will (in this case it swiches to potency) could be highjacked by someone else, if they were stong enough. in the end, whoever ends up weilding the ring will duke it out with sauron, and the winner would dominate the ring (ei, kill the other, so win the mastery of the ring by default). in this case, i think the ring would acknowledge its new master and become an outgrowth of whatever he was trying to do (which would enevitably become evil, by the evil nature of the will in the ring).

one more thing. that bit about sauron not wanting to destroy the ring is kind of self-evident. that would in effect be committing suicide. sauron isn't really going to repent (the only senario i can think of when he would have reason to destroy the ring). he already tried that and failed, even without the tempting of the ring. so i think he kind of like being evil and dominating the world.

hopefully that wasn't to confusing...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, I know that, I mean he wouldn't be able to survive (in a physical form) if the ring was destroyed, or if someone else mastered it. He would then remain just a shadow, never able to take form again.

My post was completely unnecessary here. Somehow when I looked at the thread yesterday, I only saw about half of what is here now. Apologies for the redundancy.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Some very quick thoughts here. The ring was parasitic in nature, destroying its host in order to replicate Sauron. It did not destroy Sauron to be in possession of it because it was 100 percent compatible with him (he was also parasitic in nature), and while it enhanced his power, it did not kill him to be without, it as if were a heart. And the ring sought the most compatable host.

I believe that Sauron was defeated initially because he became dependant and placed so much importance on the ring. But by the time of the War of the Ring he had grown so much in power and his will had increased so greatly with out his ring, that if he were to recover the it, he would have been much stronger than at the time of the Alliance, hence the extent of Gandalf and crew’s alarm.

So why was he defeated in the end? Because his will was broken. Middle-earth came into existence threw the will of Eru, and Sauron’s will kept Sauron alive. Once that will was broken he could no longer recreate himself. I do not think that he even would have realized that the destruction of the ring would be so devastating to him, and that the ring was still so intertwined with him, as evidenced by his efforts to find it. But the ring was never his master.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

So why was he defeated in the end? Because his will was broken. Middle-earth came into existence threw the will of Eru, and Sauron’s will kept Sauron alive. Once that will was broken he could no longer recreate himself. I do not think that he even would have realized that the destruction of the ring would be so devastating to him, and that the ring still still intertwined with him as evidenced by his efforts to find it. But the ring was never his master.

I think you have an excelent point there as, now that I think about it, the Ainur are creatures of "will" their physical shape is just an extension of that will (they want to have a shape) but if not, they are an abstract will.

I'm not sure if I could say that The Ring and Sauron were parasitic in nature, as a parasite NEEDS their host to live and replicate while Sauron was pretty much alive without the ring in his finger. The Ring was never alive on the first place, and even then it is not exactly draining its host to produce baby-rings but rather it is enforcing the will of its creator over whoever wears it. Of course, if the creator wears it, this "enforcement of the creators will" will become rather an increase of this strenght of will.

Which leads me to another thought. We see that Frodo could have used The Ring to read (for example) Galadriel's thoughts if he had tried hard enough. Re-phrasing that a little one could say that if he had had a stronger will he could have used The Ring for his own benefit.

All along we have been discussing will and power as different things yet what if they are the same? Creatures (Ainur or children of Eru) are powerful because of their strenght of will. Ainur are creatures of will only and therefore they are very powerful. We even see that when they take a physical shape they become less powerful, as they become more similar to the children of Eru who are creatures of both body and will.

So, if power is an expression of a creature's will, I would think that when this creature puts on The Ring, it is putting on Sauron's will which is what corrupts them. Perhaps the Valar, who have a stronger will than Sauron, would have been able to use The Ring without falling to it's power, but Sauron was a great of the Maiar and therefore none of the Maiar (i.e.: Gandalf or Saruman) would have been able to wield the Ring without succumbing to Sauron's will.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You are right that perhaps parasitic is not the best choice of words, since the ring was not truly alive. But it is an unusual object in that it did have a will and needed a host in order for that will to be carried out. Not literally changing the wearer into Sauron, but effecting such a change that they exhibited his will and would ultimately try to accomplish that will just as if Sauron himself where in their skin. When a host was not there, the ring would be dormant.

As for Sauron, I believe I went a bit too far with that remark. My thought was that without the creation of Arda he would have little opportunity to indulge his pride. In other words the materials he used were not his own, he had to distort/corrupt those things and creatures already in existence to feed his ego. This has nothing to do with his ring, but every thing to do with his nature.

But was this willful ring a really a 'Ring of Power' because it increased Sauron's power, or held and extra measure of his drive, or simply because it had power over the other rings? Perhaps all three of these.

Ainur are creatures of will only and therefore they are very powerful. We even see that when they take a physical shape they become less powerful, as they become more similar to the children of Eru who are creatures of both body and will.

This it is an interesting thought, that the body might place limitations on the power of the will, even among the Ainur. I am wondering what might cause this, and if it is true, could this be one reason why Sauron might place a measure of his will in something external?

[Farael]

This it is an interesting thought, that the body might place limitations on the power of the will, even among the Ainur. I am wondering what might cause this

Well, first of all he would have to use a part of his will to mantain his physical shape, as it is not his "natural" state and therefore he has to spend at least some of his will not to go back to his abstract form. Also by having a body you are more susceptible to other kinds of temptations which could corrode your will... even innocent stuff like food and drink can afect it, yet while he was just a creature of will he had no need for such things

, and if it is true, could this be one reason why Sauron might place a measure of his will in something external?

I guess it was his greed for even more power, as somehow the Ring increased his will/power and it also allowed him to control the other rings, which was what he wanted.

[Legolas]

I think the inherent problem with the intial poster's conclusion is the ignorance of the Ring's identity. The Ring is literally part of Sauron's being. As long as the Ring lives, Sauron lives - not because of some weird or backward curse, but because they are one. It wasn't only a lost possession. To separate them as different spiritual entities is to ignore their nature - 'they' are 'he.' The Ring is designed to work its way back to its master.

With it fully completing him physically (or assembling together these two parts of his being), he will undoubtedly conquer the world (according to the characters in the story). He'd be a fool not to pursue it as he did...maybe he should have gone after it even more aggressively.