Killing Gandalf

[Boromir88]

Fingolfin, you've explained it quite well. Rudeboy, I think that Gandalf probably could be killed physically by a weapon on Middle-earth, but as Fingolfin says it wouldn't kill his spirit, only his "physical form." Just like how when Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger, it only killed his physical form, not his spirit. He was still alive and capable of taking another physical form. Gandalf, if he was to be killed by say Aragorn, he would still be able to come back.

This question raises some other fascinating possibilities for me. We saw Wormtongue kill Saruman with a dagger, yet he only injured his body, whereas his spirit was dissipated by a cold wind from the West. That seems to contradict my theory that the Valar themselves probably can't harm the spirit of an incarnate being, though that gust may have been sent on the bidding, or by, Eru himself.~Fingolfin

Perhaps they may not be able to "harm" a spirit. But, they are able to decide who enters Valinor or not. And I think this was the case when Saruman was killed. His "spirit" look to the west, and he was denied entrance back to Valinor, and so his spirit just went away.

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, a s a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking into the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.~The Scouring of the Shire.

So, I think as Saruman's spirit was leaving his body, it attempted to go to Valinor, and the Valar, who do have the authority of who to allow in or not, denied him, and his spirit dissappeared. It may not have been destroyed, Saruman's spirit just may be like Sauron's when the Ring was destroyed.

"Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will."~Letter 131

[Frodo Baggins]

Granted that Maiar are much different than "mortals" (including Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits ect.) but could not the same be said for all? Gleaning things like the souls of elves being rebodied and them fading after living too long, it could it perhaps be argued that they too are only able to be harmed in body. The discussion that orcs have souls is another thread and I will leave them out. However, is it possible all sentient creatures (what Lewis would call Hnau in his space trilogy) of ME are only able to be killed in body but not in soul?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins

Granted that Maiar are much different than "mortals" (including Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits ect.) but could not the same be said for all? Gleaning things like the souls of elves being rebodied and them fading after living too long, it could it perhaps be argued that they too are only able to be harmed in body. The discussion that orcs have souls is another thread and I will leave them out. However, is it possible all sentient creatures (what Lewis would call Hnau in his space trilogy) of ME are only able to be killed in body but not in soul?

Think you are on to something, at least all the creatures that are not evil go 'somewhere' when they die, they don't just dissipate. If I'm not mistaken, men whether they die from old age or are killed by something else, go somewhere beyond the realms of Arda, but I don't really know if that means their soulds just dissipate or that they go to some sort of 'heaven' outside the halls of Mandos. Elves can only be killed yet their souls are not lost, they are kept in the halls of Mandos I believe. Regarding hobbits and dwarves I do not know, but hobbits might have descended from Men and therefore share their destiny?

Yet we are straying off topic. I have another question that's a bit closer to what was originally asked. Gandalf is a Maia sent to the ME by the Valar and in Moria he fights a Balrog. Weren't Balrogs also Maiar, but corrupted by Morgoth? and if so, we hear that Gandalf kills the Balrog.... is it possible that they could kill one another? (say, a Maia kill another Maia but an elf could not kill them because they walk on different dimensions or something like that?) I might be mistaken though, feel free to correct me.

[bilbo_baggins]

I am not for sure, but I don't think a Maia could kill another Maia. The Valar did not kill Morgoth even for all his heinous crimes, but perhaps they had a lot of mercy. But doesn't Gandalf exhibit mercy towards Gollum/Smeagol, and didn't he learn much wisdom from Nienna the Weeper? How could he then 'kill' another kindred spirit. Both the Balrog and Gandalf "died" on top of the Endless stair, but neither of their souls died.

And men's spirits go to the halls of Mandos, Farael. They do not leave Arda entirely, but go to Valinor.

[Farael]

So the spirits of men go to the halls of Mandos and the spirits of dead elves too, but a different place? I guess I got that mixed up, my bad. I do remember that the dead elves went to a place in which they had no physical body, only soul and that it was not the same place men went to (because if not, Arwen and Eleassar would have been to gether even after passing away) but I thought the men went out of the reach of the Valar.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

And men's spirits go to the halls of Mandos... They do not leave Arda entirely, but go to Valinor.

Elves, not Men, go to the Halls of Mandos.

[Fingolfin II]

Quote from my PM to Estelyn:

I don't have any evidence on me to support this, but I'm pretty sure that the spirit of Men also go to Mandos, but in a separate place, as bilbo_baggins said. However, this is only temporary, and soon their spirits pass beyond Mandos and outside of Arda.

Much obliged if somebody could provide a quote to support/disprove what I just said above.

More on topic, bilbo_baggins said-

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

The Valar did not kill Morgoth even for all his heinous crimes, but perhaps they had a lot of mercy.

As I said in my previous post, I don't believe that the Valar had the power to kill Morgoth; merely cast him into the Void at the bidding of Eru. Certainly if they do have this power to destroy his fea, then they didn't exercise it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Fingolfin II -

This may help support your point. See Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Author's Notes on the Commentary, note 4, for this :

....because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the Matter: their free will in regard to death was taken away.) There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted. No living Man was allowed to go to Aman. No fëa of a dead Man ever returned to life in Middle-earth.

This seems to be one of those clarifications framed in terms of "It is said or believed", rather than a clear statement of fact. But this is a device that Tolkien employs time and again (such as Sam eventually going to the West), which many readers (myself included) accept as "fact".

See also the statement in the usually reliable Encyclopedia of Arda:

Death; the gift of Ilúvatar to his Younger Children, allowing them to go beyond the confines of the World. After death, Mortal Men were gathered in the Halls of Mandos, and then departed from the World for a destination unknown even to the Valar. Whereas all other beings in Arda, including the Valar themselves, were bound to the World and its fate, the Gift freed Men from this destiny, allowing them to shape their own lives as they wished.

Hope this helps. Perhaps someone has additional quotes on this?