Who delivered the final blow? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Roa_Aoife · 12-05-2005, 09:38 PM

Initially, I was just going to pick Isildur as an obvious yes. Then, I read down the posts, and reconsidered. After a second reconsideration, I'm going with my first choice. Allow me to explain:

Gil-galad and Elendil may have knocked Sauron down and "disabled" him, as it were, long enough for Isildur to come in and do his hand-choppy action. It was the loss of the ring that cuased the loss of the physical body. Why? He had poured som much of himself into the ring that with out it, he no longer had the strength to maintain a physical form. That sort of thing takes energy, and the sudden loss was like getting the wind knocked out of him. He needed time to recover, to gather strength with out the ring before he could take any shape whatsoever. Even then, his physical form was far more limited than it had been with the ring. (Come on- he was a giant eye, for goodness sake. What could he do, blink at his enemies?) He had to rely on his other abilities to get anything done, the foremost being the ability to get his cronies to do the physical work.

To summarize- the loss of the ring cuased the loss of his power to overcome entropy, and since Isildur caused it, he gets the credit. Way to go Gil-galad and Elendil with the assist.

AbercrombieOfRohan · 12-05-2005, 09:57 PM

I think I'll go with Gollum.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-06-2005, 10:31 AM

Gollum, snrk.

Sauron was never a giant eye, but it's true that he couldn't maintain physical form at the Siege because it had been sliced and diced by our heroes.

One point: The passage reads "Then Sauron was for that time vanquished" after a sentence including the terms "Sauron also was thrown down" and "Isildur cut the Ruling-ring", so there is no basis in saying that this "vanquished" line supports one or t'other.

the phantom makes a good point (*gasp*) when he says that maybe there was no final blow before Sauron decided to leave his body.

In The Council, Elrond tells that "Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand..." This seems like good support for not choosing Isildur as the one who delivered the 'final' blow, which I read as that blow which crippled Sauron's body.

Fordim, you should have made it a choice between Isildur and Elendil/Gilgalad. Once more you have incurred pettiness at the structure of your polls. You'd think you would have it sorted by now.

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-06-2005, 11:22 AM

I was going to abstain, but a key is the improbability of
the very questionable PJ depiction of Sauron losing the
Ring. More likely is the Ring being cut off of a finger, with
that obviously only practicable when Sauron was "dead."
therefore, Elendil/Gilgalad seems the choice, with it
being relatively unimportant which one technically got the
last "killing" blow in. But since Isildur claimed the Ring
as weregild I'll opt for Elendil.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-06-2005, 01:58 PM

My, my, that is an excellent point Tuor. I can vote now.

Farael · 12-06-2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

More likely is the Ring being cut off of a finger, with that obviously only practicable when Sauron was "dead."

I beg to differ as he could have been incapacitated as well. You don't need to be dead to be helpless! I do agree that the depiction of the scene shown in LoTR The Movie is a little off... because we know Sauron lost ONE finger and the only way to hack the ring finger off someone is going through either their little finger or their index and middle finger! Unless, of course, the person carrying the ring tries to point his ring finger at the other (which, if you try, you'll find is VERY awkward)

Yet that does not mean that Sauron was beyond recovery. His physical body was inhabited by a VERY STRONG soul and therefore one could think that he could recover from many things a human could not and yet the soul chose to leave the body after the ring was cut off. That is, at least, what I understand from the books. So as I said before, Isidur and Elendil might have incapacitated Sauron, but loosing the ring is what made his soul leave the body.

bilbo_baggins · 12-07-2005, 12:37 PM

Really it seems to me as some people dislike Isildur himself and his character. I believe that Isildur delivered the "final" blow and that no-one delivered a killing blow because a child of Illuvatar cannot really destroy a Valar or Maiar with simple weapons. Later, Sauron is destroyed because of the destruction of the Ring, so he could be ~vanquished for a time~ by merely losing the Ring in the Last Alliance. So I voted for Isildur.

About Isildur's character: His behaviour after he acquired the Ring is very poor indeed, but I believe that this is because of his being weak-minded. He had noble intentions beforehand. He, after all, was the one to curse the Dead Men of Dunharrow, and through discussion on that, Isildur had to have either inherent power to curse or the Valar deemed him worthy enough to go through with the action. Obviously, Isildur actions were only a result of his owning the ring.

Admitted: His claiming the Ring because of his father's killing the Dark Lord is possible. Convincing, convincing.

View Poll Results: Who delivered the final blow?
Elendil	7	25.00%
Gil-Galad	3	10.71%
Isildur	18	64.29%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

12-05-2005, 09:38 PM	#1
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	Initially, I was just going to pick Isildur as an obvious yes. Then, I read down the posts, and reconsidered. After a second reconsideration, I'm going with my first choice. Allow me to explain: Gil-galad and Elendil may have knocked Sauron down and "disabled" him, as it were, long enough for Isildur to come in and do his hand-choppy action. It was the loss of the ring that cuased the loss of the physical body. Why? He had poured som much of himself into the ring that with out it, he no longer had the strength to maintain a physical form. That sort of thing takes energy, and the sudden loss was like getting the wind knocked out of him. He needed time to recover, to gather strength with out the ring before he could take any shape whatsoever. Even then, his physical form was far more limited than it had been with the ring. (Come on- he was a giant eye, for goodness sake. What could he do, blink at his enemies?) He had to rely on his other abilities to get anything done, the foremost being the ability to get his cronies to do the physical work. To summarize- the loss of the ring cuased the loss of his power to overcome entropy, and since Isildur caused it, he gets the credit. Way to go Gil-galad and Elendil with the assist. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

12-06-2005, 10:31 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Gollum, snrk. Sauron was never a giant eye, but it's true that he couldn't maintain physical form at the Siege because it had been sliced and diced by our heroes. One point: The passage reads "Then Sauron was for that time vanquished" after a sentence including the terms "Sauron also was thrown down" and "Isildur cut the Ruling-ring", so there is no basis in saying that this "vanquished" line supports one or t'other. the phantom makes a good point (gasp) when he says that maybe there was no final blow before Sauron decided to leave his body. In The Council, Elrond tells that "Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand..." This seems like good support for not choosing Isildur as the one who delivered the 'final' blow, which I read as that blow which crippled Sauron's body. Fordim, you should have made it a choice between Isildur and Elendil/Gilgalad. Once more you have incurred pettiness at the structure of your polls. You'd think you would have it sorted by now. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-06-2005, 11:22 AM	#4
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	I was going to abstain, but a key is the improbability of the very questionable PJ depiction of Sauron losing the Ring. More likely is the Ring being cut off of a finger, with that obviously only practicable when Sauron was "dead." therefore, Elendil/Gilgalad seems the choice, with it being relatively unimportant which one technically got the last "killing" blow in. But since Isildur claimed the Ring as weregild I'll opt for Elendil. __________________ Aure Entuluva!

12-06-2005, 01:58 PM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	My, my, that is an excellent point Tuor. I can vote now. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-05-2005, 09:57 PM	#2
AbercrombieOfRohan Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 311	I think I'll go with Gollum.

12-07-2005, 12:37 PM	#7
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Really it seems to me as some people dislike Isildur himself and his character. I believe that Isildur delivered the "final" blow and that no-one delivered a killing blow because a child of Illuvatar cannot really destroy a Valar or Maiar with simple weapons. Later, Sauron is destroyed because of the destruction of the Ring, so he could be ~vanquished for a time~ by merely losing the Ring in the Last Alliance. So I voted for Isildur. About Isildur's character: His behaviour after he acquired the Ring is very poor indeed, but I believe that this is because of his being weak-minded. He had noble intentions beforehand. He, after all, was the one to curse the Dead Men of Dunharrow, and through discussion on that, Isildur had to have either inherent power to curse or the Valar deemed him worthy enough to go through with the action. Obviously, Isildur actions were only a result of his owning the ring. Admitted: His claiming the Ring because of his father's killing the Dark Lord is possible. Convincing, convincing. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."