Who's the oldest? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

bilbo_baggins · 12-07-2005, 12:04 PM

Well to embody the replies:

Tom Bombadil is another Ainur (definition of Ainur being a creation of Eru) and he is the oldest (I got this from burrahobbit's post). But not the oldest Non-Valar/Maiar.

Ents and Elves are equal in age, for the Entian spirits were sent to inhabit the special tree carriers and awaken at the time of Awakening (Elvish awakening) and they later learned to speak from the Elves. Learning to speak does not mean they were less mature than the Elves. Is it not said that the Wise hold their tongue, while the foolish speak their folly plainly?

The Dwarves had a preawakening existence, for they cringed at the impending destruction by Aule's hammer. So technically, they are older than the Elves. But were the Entian spirits alive before they were sent to inhabit trees? That's the question; and it boils down to:

Tom Bombadil is older than anything else on Arda, because he IS Ea. Dwarves sorta/kinda outage Elves, but not really. Elves and Ents awaken at the same time and are equal in power. Ungoliant is a Maia, I believe (I can't know for sure).

So if you like to pick nits, "Go Dwarves!"

If you hate technicalities, "Go Elves!" (Ents are sort of like ethereal spirits and come from Eru directly, not like the Elves)

Beleg · 12-09-2005, 11:59 AM

Well, I would just like some enlightenment on the question.

People answer Galadriel for example. Before Galadriel (and Elves more generally) were other beings like the Valar. Yet, the Valar left Middle-Earth. So, the question is, who is the oldest on Middle-Earth (excluding the Valar but not Tom Bombadil). In this case, yes Galadriel could be the oldest (it is an example as the existence of Bombadil and Fangorn makes this example unlikely)

Or, is it about to discuss who's the oldest since the creation of Arda? I think the oldest are the Ainur without any doubt from that point of view.

If it's to guess who's the oldest being left on ME (so, after the departure of the Valar), maybe we can consider that Sauron is very old. He was one of the Maiar and can be even older than Galadriel.

The Eagles can be very old as well, it is said in the chapter II of the silmarillion:
Manwë speaking to Yavanna Kementari: "Cela aussi reviendra, au gré d'Iluvatar, et avant l'éveil des Enfants les Aigles des Seigneurs de l'Ouest s'élèveront à nouveau comme le vent" (in substance: the Eagles will rise again before the awakening of the children)

Anyway, the debate on Bombadil and Fangorn allows to say that they are maybe one of the few oldest beings left on ME, and maybe Fangorn and the Old Forest were created right after the coming of the Valar (and Bombadil was one of the Maiar who were with them).

I don't think for myself that we will ever be sure who is the oldest between Fangorn and Bombadil. So, i will answer stupidly and in an obvious way: the Ainur are the oldest. (I don't take part in this Bombadil debate.)
Did you get my point?

12-07-2005, 12:04 PM	#1
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Well to embody the replies: Tom Bombadil is another Ainur (definition of Ainur being a creation of Eru) and he is the oldest (I got this from burrahobbit's post). But not the oldest Non-Valar/Maiar. Ents and Elves are equal in age, for the Entian spirits were sent to inhabit the special tree carriers and awaken at the time of Awakening (Elvish awakening) and they later learned to speak from the Elves. Learning to speak does not mean they were less mature than the Elves. Is it not said that the Wise hold their tongue, while the foolish speak their folly plainly? The Dwarves had a preawakening existence, for they cringed at the impending destruction by Aule's hammer. So technically, they are older than the Elves. But were the Entian spirits alive before they were sent to inhabit trees? That's the question; and it boils down to: Tom Bombadil is older than anything else on Arda, because he IS Ea. Dwarves sorta/kinda outage Elves, but not really. Elves and Ents awaken at the same time and are equal in power. Ungoliant is a Maia, I believe (I can't know for sure). So if you like to pick nits, "Go Dwarves!" If you hate technicalities, "Go Elves!" (Ents are sort of like ethereal spirits and come from Eru directly, not like the Elves) __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief." Last edited by bilbo_baggins; 12-07-2005 at 12:19 PM.

12-09-2005, 11:59 AM	#2
Beleg Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Between France and Doriath Posts: 42	Well, I would just like some enlightenment on the question. People answer Galadriel for example. Before Galadriel (and Elves more generally) were other beings like the Valar. Yet, the Valar left Middle-Earth. So, the question is, who is the oldest on Middle-Earth (excluding the Valar but not Tom Bombadil). In this case, yes Galadriel could be the oldest (it is an example as the existence of Bombadil and Fangorn makes this example unlikely) Or, is it about to discuss who's the oldest since the creation of Arda? I think the oldest are the Ainur without any doubt from that point of view. If it's to guess who's the oldest being left on ME (so, after the departure of the Valar), maybe we can consider that Sauron is very old. He was one of the Maiar and can be even older than Galadriel. The Eagles can be very old as well, it is said in the chapter II of the silmarillion: Manwë speaking to Yavanna Kementari: "Cela aussi reviendra, au gré d'Iluvatar, et avant l'éveil des Enfants les Aigles des Seigneurs de l'Ouest s'élèveront à nouveau comme le vent" (in substance: the Eagles will rise again before the awakening of the children) Anyway, the debate on Bombadil and Fangorn allows to say that they are maybe one of the few oldest beings left on ME, and maybe Fangorn and the Old Forest were created right after the coming of the Valar (and Bombadil was one of the Maiar who were with them). I don't think for myself that we will ever be sure who is the oldest between Fangorn and Bombadil. So, i will answer stupidly and in an obvious way: the Ainur are the oldest. (I don't take part in this Bombadil debate.) Did you get my point? __________________ Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul Last edited by Beleg; 12-09-2005 at 12:05 PM.