Middle Earth "afterlife"

[the guy who be short]

Orcs being a mutilated form of Elves given, they do possess the Flame Imperishable, meaning that they must experience some sort of afterlife. Whether they would go to Mandos or not is debatable. One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing? A merciful Eru would surely simply destroy them, though we are now venturing into personal opinion.

As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed.

One of the things that appeals to me a lot in LotR is the mystery surrounding the afterlife. However much we debate, that's not going to be solved.

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed.

Are the Eagles really Maiar of Valinor? They are "spirits from afar" sent by Eru to inhabit the creations of Manwe (and Yavanna: the Ents). Look at the quote provided in
this post concerning a different topic... Now, if the spirits are from some place outside the world (that's the way I interpret the text but i might be wrong), why would they then go to Valinor, why not leave the world and go back to wherever they came from?

And the Mearas, are they Maiar? I can't remember reading that anywhere, but as with everything else there's a possibility that I'm wrong...

Just to clear things up: I'm not questioning if Maiar with origin in Valinor go there when they're body dies, but rather the origin of spirits in for example Eagles, Ents and Mearas.

[Legolas]

Actually they can. Take Luthien for example!

Er...the only example?

Luthien did not "give up" her immortality. She died. She was permitted to come back, and given a choice between immortality and mortality because of her great deeds. Not because she was an elf.

Elros and Arwen are half-elves. Half-elves are mortal by default - Manwe had previously made a decree that any being with any mortal blood was mortal. Elrond and Elros were granted a special choice because of, once again, the great deads of their parents, Earendil and Elwin.

Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir were given the choice again because Elrond (half-elf) wed Celebrian (an elf), thereby renewing their 'elvish' strain. After their generation, their family's choice would be finished.

Special choices were granted to these, and these alone.

It is easy to be fooled though, given the way the movie potrays the situation and the way Lord of the Rings never really spells out the issue.

[Gothmog]

OK Legolas, it's a question of what one mean by "choose mortality". I agree that it's not something every elf can do or are allowed to do, all I meant was that there are exceptions where it has happpened. So one can say yes, sometimes under very special conditions elves can choose mortality. Or one can say no, elves (as in ordinary/most elves) can not choose mortality. Let's leave it with that...

Half-elves are mortal by default - Manwe had previously made a decree that any being with any mortal blood was mortal

Shouldn't that mean that for example Elwing was mortal? Beren was 100% man and Luthien half-elven, half-maia and became mortal, so their son Dior should be half-elven. He married Nimloth (100 % elf) and that would make Elwing 1/4 man (of course she was 100% woman, but you know what I mean ) and by that mortal blood she would become mortal. I've always considered her an elf!

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing?

This could be said of many humans in Middle Earth, as well as many in our own time. But existence is not the evil the orcs do; that is a gift they abuse. Their inability to repent is akin to their inability to see their own evil as evil.

[Legolas]

I still hold that Luthien's single, exceptional case doesn't warrant mentioning that - no more than Tuor's conversion in the oppisite direction. It's still misleading that one would say 'elves can sometimes choose mortality' - with the direct action of Eru, any beings' fundamental kind can be changed. You're right though, we can leave it at that.

Dior and his children were definitely half-elves. This is part of the significance of Elwing and Earendil's union, and their family. Dior, Elured, and Elurin were slain in Ruin of Doriath, leaving Elwing as the only descendent of Luthien and Beren. Elwing and Earendil were both half-elven, and given a choice after their great contributions in the War of Wrath, Elwing chose to be an elf, and Earendil followed as he did not want them to be separated.

With the deaths of Dior and his sons, Elwing and Earendil represented to the two remaining strains of elf + man, and by joining, these two special cases were narrowed down to one lineage which directly allowed Numenor to happen, and eventually Elendil and Gondor, and finally Aragorn who was able to hold off the attack of Sauron and usher in the 'Age of Man.'

Tolkien mentions this intentional significance (and the first point as well) in Letter #153.

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

[Formendacil]

As an addendum, to build on and clarify what Legolas just said regarding the choice of Elwing and Earendil: it was not a seperate choice from that of their sons, Elrond and Elros, but a choice put to the entire family at that time.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(Many thanks to Farael for the idea.)

I think Hell in Eä is any place where a being cannot fulfil his proper state. For example, the Nazgûl and the Dead Men of Dunharrow were denied their gift to escape the world; thus their continued existence on Arda is hellish to them. (Although Lalwendë pointed out that the Dead Men were allowed to depart after some tasks . . . hmmm . . . Purgatory, then?) Saruman, denied entry to the West from which he came (and to which he expected to return), is considered in Hell. Now, to the rest of those living in ME, they won't consider ME Hell, but to these people, ME is Hell, just because they aren't supposed to be there.

Speaking of Nazgûl, Lal pointed out the Halls of Lamentation mentioned during the Witch-King's debate with Éowyn. Perhaps it is not an actual place, but a state of existence similar to them. (Does he have more of that Morgul blade thing, then?)

About Orcs . . . well, maybe I'll come back to the topic later, when I've purged the thoughts of Sai and Naruto battling from my mind.

[Elu Ancalime]

Perhaps this thread should split into an 'Orc Afterlife thread' and a Half elven thread, because i might be a bit confusing overlapping these topics
________
AVANZA

[Thinlómien]

Actually about dwarf afterlife it is said (where, I don't remember) that they themselves believe that after their deaths they will go to Aulë and at the end they will be treated as the Children. WARNING: Don't consider this a fact, because I'm not sure, especially about the later part.