Why'd Sharkey do that? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-28-2005, 10:52 AM

I think Saruman knew deep down that, when Frodo returned to the Shire, his Doom was at hand. He makes mention of Frodo tarrying on the road home and thus he is able to do considerable damage to Frodo's home. The way he says this implies that he didn't want to hang around the Shire when the Heroes came back, and his meek surrender of Bag End confirms this.

The attempted murder of Frodo suggests that he wanted to die.

littlemanpoet · 12-28-2005, 07:17 PM

Wanted to die? Do you really think so? Granted, he's been reduced to a shadow (pardon the Tolkienian pun) of what he had been, but death wish? Do you really think he had it thought out that much?

Come to think of it, Saruman does seem little wiser than an orc at the end, what with his spiteful revenge and sneering way, especially directed at Wormtongue, who I feel is the second most tragic figure in the entire story after Gollum. Uh oh, I suppose there's a thread about most tragic figure somewhere in all this forum, isn't there?

Bêthberry · 12-28-2005, 07:54 PM

Well, I had always thought it was a spiteful act of meaningless malice on Sharkey's part to ruin the Shire. He'd lost his chance at the big hand, but he still could ruin something that was precious and special to the man/wizard who had defeated him at the larger game. It was also a way to poison Gandalf's victory.

Elu Ancalime · 12-28-2005, 08:06 PM

I dont remember the exact statment gandalf said, about capable of doing 'a little bit of meaness'........but i suppose he didnt want the travellers to return to the shire if he could still fight in 'some small way.' i dont think he thought he would 'win,' but with Wormtounge turning on hom and jumping him, i think he had no thought of that at all. if wormtounge didnt stick him, who knows......he might have escaped into the East and set up some small tyranny and brought technologu and industry to men, as Weapons and Warefare put it. I think he knew he couldn't achive anymore in the West, he was just a bug up somebodys shirt.

? odd analogy......
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Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-29-2005, 02:16 PM

Maybe it's not so much that he wanted to die, but I don't think he wanted to continue his miserable life. If he did want to survive and go somewhere else then he would have left as soon as Frodo returned and he would not have tried to murder him. He was basically asking for the Hobbits to kill him by killing Frodo.

And there's that metaphor of the sighing spirit being turned away by the Western wind (metaphor? It might be...) It suggests that Saruman thought the whole affair pathetic and 'sigh-worthy'.

Elu Ancalime · 12-29-2005, 04:14 PM

I just thought of this: Frodo could not visualize the Shire when the Ring 'controled' him the most on Mt Doom. When the Ring was destroyed, he was sent back into the world he knew, virtually free from what the Ring took from him. Praps when Sauruman saw Isenguard fall so quickly, he realized he was just a wizard fallen from his path. And after the Ring was destroyed, I suppose he might have realized his life was wasted, really, on his dreams. But he took this in spite. Like his long term feeling of when for that moment, those within grasp of the ring felt they coulf fufill their desires with the ring, then realizing they can't. Kind of like Sauruman was drunk for all those years, and then when he was sober, he realized he had done some stupid stuff. [well ive never been drunk or taken a drink-im only 14, so i cant say this from experiance lol]
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Lalwendë · 12-30-2005, 06:49 AM

Why would Saruman expect Frodo to have become stronger as a result of being the Ringbearer? He was knowledgeable in Ring Lore and might easily assume that Frodo would be entirely incapable of putting up any challenge against him. In addition, Saruman is one of those in Middle-earth who underestimates Hobbits and considers them to be passive and a pushover; this is in fact more or less the case until Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin return and stir up resistance.

As to why he goes there in the first place, he was clearly exploiting the resources of the Shire at an earlier date so this is an extension of that. It is a rich place in terms of potential labour force, and also can provide goods such as food and pipe-weed, valuable resources for someone who wished to build his own army.

I think Saruman does not bother to rouse himself and challenge the Hobbits at the Battle of Bywater as he simply believes he will overcome them at the doors of Bag End. He has the pride and arrogance of a conqueror over a seemingly small people; he allows them to kill his own people as these Men are expendable, he is sitting smugly in Bag End assuming he will win out when they come to challenge him, that is if they even dare to challenge him. When he issues his threat, the Hobbits all recoil in fear until Frodo warns them against this, which shows that Saruman has wrongly guessed at what Frodo will now be like as a result of his experiences.

12-28-2005, 10:52 AM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I think Saruman knew deep down that, when Frodo returned to the Shire, his Doom was at hand. He makes mention of Frodo tarrying on the road home and thus he is able to do considerable damage to Frodo's home. The way he says this implies that he didn't want to hang around the Shire when the Heroes came back, and his meek surrender of Bag End confirms this. The attempted murder of Frodo suggests that he wanted to die. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-28-2005, 07:54 PM	#3
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Well, I had always thought it was a spiteful act of meaningless malice on Sharkey's part to ruin the Shire. He'd lost his chance at the big hand, but he still could ruin something that was precious and special to the man/wizard who had defeated him at the larger game. It was also a way to poison Gandalf's victory. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

12-28-2005, 08:06 PM	#4
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	I dont remember the exact statment gandalf said, about capable of doing 'a little bit of meaness'........but i suppose he didnt want the travellers to return to the shire if he could still fight in 'some small way.' i dont think he thought he would 'win,' but with Wormtounge turning on hom and jumping him, i think he had no thought of that at all. if wormtounge didnt stick him, who knows......he might have escaped into the East and set up some small tyranny and brought technologu and industry to men, as Weapons and Warefare put it. I think he knew he couldn't achive anymore in the West, he was just a bug up somebodys shirt. ? odd analogy...... ________ Headshop Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 10:28 PM.

12-29-2005, 02:16 PM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Maybe it's not so much that he wanted to die, but I don't think he wanted to continue his miserable life. If he did want to survive and go somewhere else then he would have left as soon as Frodo returned and he would not have tried to murder him. He was basically asking for the Hobbits to kill him by killing Frodo. And there's that metaphor of the sighing spirit being turned away by the Western wind (metaphor? It might be...) It suggests that Saruman thought the whole affair pathetic and 'sigh-worthy'. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-29-2005, 04:14 PM	#6
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	I just thought of this: Frodo could not visualize the Shire when the Ring 'controled' him the most on Mt Doom. When the Ring was destroyed, he was sent back into the world he knew, virtually free from what the Ring took from him. Praps when Sauruman saw Isenguard fall so quickly, he realized he was just a wizard fallen from his path. And after the Ring was destroyed, I suppose he might have realized his life was wasted, really, on his dreams. But he took this in spite. Like his long term feeling of when for that moment, those within grasp of the ring felt they coulf fufill their desires with the ring, then realizing they can't. Kind of like Sauruman was drunk for all those years, and then when he was sober, he realized he had done some stupid stuff. [well ive never been drunk or taken a drink-im only 14, so i cant say this from experiance lol] ________ Ford Dld Engine Picture Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 10:32 PM.

12-28-2005, 07:17 PM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Wanted to die? Do you really think so? Granted, he's been reduced to a shadow (pardon the Tolkienian pun) of what he had been, but death wish? Do you really think he had it thought out that much? Come to think of it, Saruman does seem little wiser than an orc at the end, what with his spiteful revenge and sneering way, especially directed at Wormtongue, who I feel is the second most tragic figure in the entire story after Gollum. Uh oh, I suppose there's a thread about most tragic figure somewhere in all this forum, isn't there?

12-30-2005, 06:49 AM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Why would Saruman expect Frodo to have become stronger as a result of being the Ringbearer? He was knowledgeable in Ring Lore and might easily assume that Frodo would be entirely incapable of putting up any challenge against him. In addition, Saruman is one of those in Middle-earth who underestimates Hobbits and considers them to be passive and a pushover; this is in fact more or less the case until Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin return and stir up resistance. As to why he goes there in the first place, he was clearly exploiting the resources of the Shire at an earlier date so this is an extension of that. It is a rich place in terms of potential labour force, and also can provide goods such as food and pipe-weed, valuable resources for someone who wished to build his own army. I think Saruman does not bother to rouse himself and challenge the Hobbits at the Battle of Bywater as he simply believes he will overcome them at the doors of Bag End. He has the pride and arrogance of a conqueror over a seemingly small people; he allows them to kill his own people as these Men are expendable, he is sitting smugly in Bag End assuming he will win out when they come to challenge him, that is if they even dare to challenge him. When he issues his threat, the Hobbits all recoil in fear until Frodo warns them against this, which shows that Saruman has wrongly guessed at what Frodo will now be like as a result of his experiences. __________________ Gordon's alive!