A Happy Ending... or is it? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Folwren · 01-04-2006, 01:34 PM

Good gracious me, I don't think it's a happy ending! I don't know how he could have possibly written a better ending for such a story, but I don't think that it's a happy one. There's too much sorrow mixed into it. Too many farewells. It was too big of a price to be paid, the quest was, in order for the end to be what I would define as happy. And it wasn't just Frodo who had to make a sacrifice, and who had to go because of what he did. But also the elves. . .and many things passed over the sea with them.

For me, however, when it comes time to read that last chapter, and when I finally shut the book and gently brush the back cover with my hand and blink back the tears that always come, it's not for the elves, or for the magic, or the ending of the age, or the world, but for Sam. It's because of him that I mostly think it's a sad ending. I always finish the book asking - Why? But I don't suppose that'll ever be answered. It's just how things end, I guess. I don't suppose I can honestly say that it wasn't a somewhat happy ending. . .but I can't help but feel the emptiness that Sam must have felt, standing on the shore watching the ship until it passed from sight. And it hurts, more than cheers me.

Anyhow. . .there are lots more complicated thoughts whirling round in my head on this topic, but I think that Child has already commented on most of them, other than the one I just mentioned, so I'll let it rest.

-- Folwren

Farael · 01-04-2006, 04:19 PM

I always thought the book did not have a happy ending but the characters did live happily ever after. How so? well, here is the thing

First of all, even though the ending of the story is... perhaps ten pages long? I can't quite recall, but even if it was a whole chapter... it is still significantly shorter than the rest of the book, even though an approximate equal amount of time goes by from Bilbo's 111th birthday to the destruction of the ring. So the Fellowship does indeed last a little longer than that (There is no reason to believe that they did not keep in touch with each other, even if they did not have e-mail)

Then Frodo leaves for Valinor and it's a sweet and sour moment. We are all happy for him and at the same time we feel the pain of the hobbits. Let's not forget they are loosing Gandalf, and Galadriel too. Sam is probably the worst off as he was the closest to Frodo, the one (besides perhaps Frodo himself) who loved elves the most and they all loved Gandalf.

Still, Merry Pippin and Sam as well as Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are probably in touch with each other, maybe even visiting from time to time. On the long run, I would think that they came to terms with the loss of part of their fellowship because they ought to have known it was the best for them.

Regarding the end of an era, I don't think it was up to any of the characters to understand that. We understand it, maybe Gandalf did as well... but it was the time they were living at and it is easier for us to see things in perspective than for them.

Which brings another completely different topic.... the ending is definetly sad for us, because of many reasons.

First of all, it's the end!!! Lord Of The Rings is over!!! It's that bittersweet moment in which we realize that no matter what we read it will not be exactly the same. As Lhuna said, if it was up to me, I'd start a new adventure for the Fellowship... and another, and another. But Tolkien was smart enough to realize the story was over and that trying to stretch it any further would have been like the effect the ring had on Bilbo... stretched but not growing.

Second, as I said before, the ending is far shorter than the rest of the story although quite a bit of time comes by. For us readers, everything is still too fresh in our memories, the great adventures and the ever-lasting friendship. For the characters, instead, some time has passed (now I can't recall how much) and they have probably been able to adapt to their new situations. After all, life goes on.

On the long run, they will all understand that each has been given what is best for him and so be happy.

davem · 01-04-2006, 05:49 PM

(This is one of those posts that you don't know whether to submit or delete - well, no: you know you should delete it but you're too egotistical to bin your work....)

I've just finished a volume on Tolkien by Robley Evans in the 'Writers of the 70's series, published in 1972. He said something interesting, which I hadn't considered. This book was written before the Sil or even the Letters was published, & he mentions that Bilbo & Frodo had been granted immortality in the end - remember the 'Frodo Lives' buttons that were around in the 60's-70's?

We read LotR now with a lot of background knowledge that readers of that period didn't have. They didn't know that Frodo would eventually die in the Blessed Realm. For them Frodo was going to Heaven, to dwell eternally with the Elves. He would recieve an eternal reward in the West without actually dying.

What the post-LotR writings by JRRT have done is make his sojourn in the West a temporary thing for us, a transition period before he dies. This actually takes away the feeling that he has been rewarded for his sufferings on behalf of the people of Middle-earth. However long he got to spend in the West, he died. His time in the West is now seen (in Tolkien's words in one of the Letters) as a period in 'purgatory'. This effectively lessens the sense of 'completion' we feel when we read of his coming to Tol Eressea.

What I mean is, whether we think of Frodo's passage into the West as an allegory of his dying, or whether we see it as his going to the Earthly Paradise, the end of Frodo's story for us now is his death. He gets no 'reward'. Its as if Tolkien's essential pessimism could not allow him to let Frodo live on.

Perhaps this is the reason the ending of LotR is so moving. Everyone (apart from the Elves) dies. Whatever sacrifices they make, however much they suffer, there is no escape from death. Of course, Tolkien said LotR is about the inevitability of death. Sacrifices are made for others, so that they can go on to make sacrifices so that others still can go on. Its a story about 'sacrifice' for others. Frodo gives up his life for others, without thought for reward (which is good, because, in the long term he gets none - only a respite).

So, its about the inevitability of death & the necessity of sacrifice & the abscence of any real reward for it that we can know about or do anything much than hope for.

We could just put that down to Tolkien's pessimism - if we weren't so moved by the story. Are we also pessimists? Is that why we're moved?

Don't think so - if that was the explanation we'd finish the book with the feeling 'Huh! I knew it was like that!'

I think the sadness we feel is down to the fact that so many things have come to an end (both within the secondary world & in the primary - ie we've finished the book), but the happiness we feel is perhaps down to the fact that things do go on: Sam goes back to Rosie & Elanor, life goes on, etc, etc ...or

Maybe what we feel is not so much 'happiness' as 'completion', fulfillment, the feeling that it was all Right in the end. That we've been told a True story - that that's how the world is.

And I know none of that makes much sense.

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-04-2006, 10:13 PM

Well, it's absolutely correct that Tolkien intentionally designed the end of the book to be bittersweet. Fading and passing away is a theme that runs throughout the entire history of Middle-earth. Whether it's the Two Trees, the Noldor, the Silmarils, Numenor, or Frodo, nothing lasts forever, no matter how great or glorious it is. One day, Morgoth will return, and the Dagor Dagorath will, we must assume, wipe out many fair things.

And whether Tolkien meant it to be or not, I think that this theme in his work is a direct result of his Christian worldview. Fading is the way things are. Man lives for seventy years or however long, and then one day he dies. And he's gone, never coming back. Ultimately, fading is a result of sin.

Not intending to preach, but this is why I would face total despair, if I were not a Christian. Being such, I believe that in God, there is something that will never pass away, and one day I will join Him in a place that will never fade. It is the way of the world that all things must pass away, but one day everything will change and we will be ushered into eternity.

All right, enough of the theology. If I've offended you, I apologize; like I said, I'm not trying to preach, proselytize, or shove my religion down your throat; I'm just stating my beliefs, and I think Tolkien's were similar. Certainly, we see more than an indication of this in his works. We can assume that Eru Iluvatar, the God of Ea, never fades or passes away. And think of Galadriel's final words to Treebeard. "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"

yavanna II · 01-06-2006, 12:48 AM

I don't think Tolkien would have wanted a "too-sweet" ending, meaning everybody is perfectly happy, perfectly satisfied with the world.

Moreover I think he had been greatly influened by his religion (see Elladan & Elrohir's post above), and I do not think he made ME a perfect world, wherein once evil is defeated, it is forever banished. I remember old Dumbledore saying to Harry, "evil cannot be fully defeated... just kept at bay" (I can't quote this, since I haven't got my HPHBP).

I suppose it applies in our very own world, and in Arda too. They can't be 100% happy, the story's end has not got to be 100% happy.

~yavie

Gurthang · 01-07-2006, 03:16 PM

You know, I just realized that this is part of what makes The Hobbit so much different from LotR. The endings are so completely opposite.

The Hobbit ends, if I recall correctly, with Gandalf and Bilbo (and others, I think) sitting around smoking pipeweed and recounting how good it is to be back to life as normal. And that's what it is. Bilbo goes back to the Shire and continues like it was before his grand adventure, that is, of course, after he gets all his stuff back. But really, that ending is really a very happy ending and almost gives the 'happily ever after' feeling.

But with LotR, as is stated many times above, is not like that at all. It's not really negative, like 'they lived miserably ever after' but there's certainly no 'happily ever after.'

This makes me think that this is why the Hobbit, on the whole, seems like such a more pleasant and 'feel good' tale as compared to LotR. Sure, I love them both, but they are very different, and this suddenly makes a lot of sense as to why.

01-04-2006, 01:34 PM	#1
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Good gracious me, I don't think it's a happy ending! I don't know how he could have possibly written a better ending for such a story, but I don't think that it's a happy one. There's too much sorrow mixed into it. Too many farewells. It was too big of a price to be paid, the quest was, in order for the end to be what I would define as happy. And it wasn't just Frodo who had to make a sacrifice, and who had to go because of what he did. But also the elves. . .and many things passed over the sea with them. For me, however, when it comes time to read that last chapter, and when I finally shut the book and gently brush the back cover with my hand and blink back the tears that always come, it's not for the elves, or for the magic, or the ending of the age, or the world, but for Sam. It's because of him that I mostly think it's a sad ending. I always finish the book asking - Why? But I don't suppose that'll ever be answered. It's just how things end, I guess. I don't suppose I can honestly say that it wasn't a somewhat happy ending. . .but I can't help but feel the emptiness that Sam must have felt, standing on the shore watching the ship until it passed from sight. And it hurts, more than cheers me. Anyhow. . .there are lots more complicated thoughts whirling round in my head on this topic, but I think that Child has already commented on most of them, other than the one I just mentioned, so I'll let it rest. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-04-2006, 05:49 PM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	(This is one of those posts that you don't know whether to submit or delete - well, no: you know you should delete it but you're too egotistical to bin your work....) I've just finished a volume on Tolkien by Robley Evans in the 'Writers of the 70's series, published in 1972. He said something interesting, which I hadn't considered. This book was written before the Sil or even the Letters was published, & he mentions that Bilbo & Frodo had been granted immortality in the end - remember the 'Frodo Lives' buttons that were around in the 60's-70's? We read LotR now with a lot of background knowledge that readers of that period didn't have. They didn't know that Frodo would eventually die in the Blessed Realm. For them Frodo was going to Heaven, to dwell eternally with the Elves. He would recieve an eternal reward in the West without actually dying. What the post-LotR writings by JRRT have done is make his sojourn in the West a temporary thing for us, a transition period before he dies. This actually takes away the feeling that he has been rewarded for his sufferings on behalf of the people of Middle-earth. However long he got to spend in the West, he died. His time in the West is now seen (in Tolkien's words in one of the Letters) as a period in 'purgatory'. This effectively lessens the sense of 'completion' we feel when we read of his coming to Tol Eressea. What I mean is, whether we think of Frodo's passage into the West as an allegory of his dying, or whether we see it as his going to the Earthly Paradise, the end of Frodo's story for us now is his death. He gets no 'reward'. Its as if Tolkien's essential pessimism could not allow him to let Frodo live on. Perhaps this is the reason the ending of LotR is so moving. Everyone (apart from the Elves) dies. Whatever sacrifices they make, however much they suffer, there is no escape from death. Of course, Tolkien said LotR is about the inevitability of death. Sacrifices are made for others, so that they can go on to make sacrifices so that others still can go on. Its a story about 'sacrifice' for others. Frodo gives up his life for others, without thought for reward (which is good, because, in the long term he gets none - only a respite). So, its about the inevitability of death & the necessity of sacrifice & the abscence of any real reward for it that we can know about or do anything much than hope for. We could just put that down to Tolkien's pessimism - if we weren't so moved by the story. Are we also pessimists? Is that why we're moved? Don't think so - if that was the explanation we'd finish the book with the feeling 'Huh! I knew it was like that!' I think the sadness we feel is down to the fact that so many things have come to an end (both within the secondary world & in the primary - ie we've finished the book), but the happiness we feel is perhaps down to the fact that things do go on: Sam goes back to Rosie & Elanor, life goes on, etc, etc ...or Maybe what we feel is not so much 'happiness' as 'completion', fulfillment, the feeling that it was all Right in the end. That we've been told a True story - that that's how the world is. And I know none of that makes much sense. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

01-04-2006, 10:13 PM	#4
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Well, it's absolutely correct that Tolkien intentionally designed the end of the book to be bittersweet. Fading and passing away is a theme that runs throughout the entire history of Middle-earth. Whether it's the Two Trees, the Noldor, the Silmarils, Numenor, or Frodo, nothing lasts forever, no matter how great or glorious it is. One day, Morgoth will return, and the Dagor Dagorath will, we must assume, wipe out many fair things. And whether Tolkien meant it to be or not, I think that this theme in his work is a direct result of his Christian worldview. Fading is the way things are. Man lives for seventy years or however long, and then one day he dies. And he's gone, never coming back. Ultimately, fading is a result of sin. Not intending to preach, but this is why I would face total despair, if I were not a Christian. Being such, I believe that in God, there is something that will never pass away, and one day I will join Him in a place that will never fade. It is the way of the world that all things must pass away, but one day everything will change and we will be ushered into eternity. All right, enough of the theology. If I've offended you, I apologize; like I said, I'm not trying to preach, proselytize, or shove my religion down your throat; I'm just stating my beliefs, and I think Tolkien's were similar. Certainly, we see more than an indication of this in his works. We can assume that Eru Iluvatar, the God of Ea, never fades or passes away. And think of Galadriel's final words to Treebeard. "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!" __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

01-06-2006, 12:48 AM	#5
yavanna II Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in my own little world Posts: 142	I don't think Tolkien would have wanted a "too-sweet" ending, meaning everybody is perfectly happy, perfectly satisfied with the world. Moreover I think he had been greatly influened by his religion (see Elladan & Elrohir's post above), and I do not think he made ME a perfect world, wherein once evil is defeated, it is forever banished. I remember old Dumbledore saying to Harry, "evil cannot be fully defeated... just kept at bay" (I can't quote this, since I haven't got my HPHBP). I suppose it applies in our very own world, and in Arda too. They can't be 100% happy, the story's end has not got to be 100% happy. ~yavie Last edited by yavanna II; 01-06-2006 at 12:51 AM.

01-07-2006, 03:16 PM	#6
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	You know, I just realized that this is part of what makes The Hobbit so much different from LotR. The endings are so completely opposite. The Hobbit ends, if I recall correctly, with Gandalf and Bilbo (and others, I think) sitting around smoking pipeweed and recounting how good it is to be back to life as normal. And that's what it is. Bilbo goes back to the Shire and continues like it was before his grand adventure, that is, of course, after he gets all his stuff back. But really, that ending is really a very happy ending and almost gives the 'happily ever after' feeling. But with LotR, as is stated many times above, is not like that at all. It's not really negative, like 'they lived miserably ever after' but there's certainly no 'happily ever after.' This makes me think that this is why the Hobbit, on the whole, seems like such a more pleasant and 'feel good' tale as compared to LotR. Sure, I love them both, but they are very different, and this suddenly makes a lot of sense as to why. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

01-04-2006, 04:19 PM	#2
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	I always thought the book did not have a happy ending but the characters did live happily ever after. How so? well, here is the thing First of all, even though the ending of the story is... perhaps ten pages long? I can't quite recall, but even if it was a whole chapter... it is still significantly shorter than the rest of the book, even though an approximate equal amount of time goes by from Bilbo's 111th birthday to the destruction of the ring. So the Fellowship does indeed last a little longer than that (There is no reason to believe that they did not keep in touch with each other, even if they did not have e-mail) Then Frodo leaves for Valinor and it's a sweet and sour moment. We are all happy for him and at the same time we feel the pain of the hobbits. Let's not forget they are loosing Gandalf, and Galadriel too. Sam is probably the worst off as he was the closest to Frodo, the one (besides perhaps Frodo himself) who loved elves the most and they all loved Gandalf. Still, Merry Pippin and Sam as well as Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are probably in touch with each other, maybe even visiting from time to time. On the long run, I would think that they came to terms with the loss of part of their fellowship because they ought to have known it was the best for them. Regarding the end of an era, I don't think it was up to any of the characters to understand that. We understand it, maybe Gandalf did as well... but it was the time they were living at and it is easier for us to see things in perspective than for them. Which brings another completely different topic.... the ending is definetly sad for us, because of many reasons. First of all, it's the end!!! Lord Of The Rings is over!!! It's that bittersweet moment in which we realize that no matter what we read it will not be exactly the same. As Lhuna said, if it was up to me, I'd start a new adventure for the Fellowship... and another, and another. But Tolkien was smart enough to realize the story was over and that trying to stretch it any further would have been like the effect the ring had on Bilbo... stretched but not growing. Second, as I said before, the ending is far shorter than the rest of the story although quite a bit of time comes by. For us readers, everything is still too fresh in our memories, the great adventures and the ever-lasting friendship. For the characters, instead, some time has passed (now I can't recall how much) and they have probably been able to adapt to their new situations. After all, life goes on. On the long run, they will all understand that each has been given what is best for him and so be happy.