A Happy Ending... or is it? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-04-2006, 10:13 PM

Well, it's absolutely correct that Tolkien intentionally designed the end of the book to be bittersweet. Fading and passing away is a theme that runs throughout the entire history of Middle-earth. Whether it's the Two Trees, the Noldor, the Silmarils, Numenor, or Frodo, nothing lasts forever, no matter how great or glorious it is. One day, Morgoth will return, and the Dagor Dagorath will, we must assume, wipe out many fair things.

And whether Tolkien meant it to be or not, I think that this theme in his work is a direct result of his Christian worldview. Fading is the way things are. Man lives for seventy years or however long, and then one day he dies. And he's gone, never coming back. Ultimately, fading is a result of sin.

Not intending to preach, but this is why I would face total despair, if I were not a Christian. Being such, I believe that in God, there is something that will never pass away, and one day I will join Him in a place that will never fade. It is the way of the world that all things must pass away, but one day everything will change and we will be ushered into eternity.

All right, enough of the theology. If I've offended you, I apologize; like I said, I'm not trying to preach, proselytize, or shove my religion down your throat; I'm just stating my beliefs, and I think Tolkien's were similar. Certainly, we see more than an indication of this in his works. We can assume that Eru Iluvatar, the God of Ea, never fades or passes away. And think of Galadriel's final words to Treebeard. "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"

yavanna II · 01-06-2006, 12:48 AM

I don't think Tolkien would have wanted a "too-sweet" ending, meaning everybody is perfectly happy, perfectly satisfied with the world.

Moreover I think he had been greatly influened by his religion (see Elladan & Elrohir's post above), and I do not think he made ME a perfect world, wherein once evil is defeated, it is forever banished. I remember old Dumbledore saying to Harry, "evil cannot be fully defeated... just kept at bay" (I can't quote this, since I haven't got my HPHBP).

I suppose it applies in our very own world, and in Arda too. They can't be 100% happy, the story's end has not got to be 100% happy.

~yavie

Gurthang · 01-07-2006, 03:16 PM

You know, I just realized that this is part of what makes The Hobbit so much different from LotR. The endings are so completely opposite.

The Hobbit ends, if I recall correctly, with Gandalf and Bilbo (and others, I think) sitting around smoking pipeweed and recounting how good it is to be back to life as normal. And that's what it is. Bilbo goes back to the Shire and continues like it was before his grand adventure, that is, of course, after he gets all his stuff back. But really, that ending is really a very happy ending and almost gives the 'happily ever after' feeling.

But with LotR, as is stated many times above, is not like that at all. It's not really negative, like 'they lived miserably ever after' but there's certainly no 'happily ever after.'

This makes me think that this is why the Hobbit, on the whole, seems like such a more pleasant and 'feel good' tale as compared to LotR. Sure, I love them both, but they are very different, and this suddenly makes a lot of sense as to why.

01-04-2006, 10:13 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Well, it's absolutely correct that Tolkien intentionally designed the end of the book to be bittersweet. Fading and passing away is a theme that runs throughout the entire history of Middle-earth. Whether it's the Two Trees, the Noldor, the Silmarils, Numenor, or Frodo, nothing lasts forever, no matter how great or glorious it is. One day, Morgoth will return, and the Dagor Dagorath will, we must assume, wipe out many fair things. And whether Tolkien meant it to be or not, I think that this theme in his work is a direct result of his Christian worldview. Fading is the way things are. Man lives for seventy years or however long, and then one day he dies. And he's gone, never coming back. Ultimately, fading is a result of sin. Not intending to preach, but this is why I would face total despair, if I were not a Christian. Being such, I believe that in God, there is something that will never pass away, and one day I will join Him in a place that will never fade. It is the way of the world that all things must pass away, but one day everything will change and we will be ushered into eternity. All right, enough of the theology. If I've offended you, I apologize; like I said, I'm not trying to preach, proselytize, or shove my religion down your throat; I'm just stating my beliefs, and I think Tolkien's were similar. Certainly, we see more than an indication of this in his works. We can assume that Eru Iluvatar, the God of Ea, never fades or passes away. And think of Galadriel's final words to Treebeard. "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!" __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

01-06-2006, 12:48 AM	#2
yavanna II Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in my own little world Posts: 142	I don't think Tolkien would have wanted a "too-sweet" ending, meaning everybody is perfectly happy, perfectly satisfied with the world. Moreover I think he had been greatly influened by his religion (see Elladan & Elrohir's post above), and I do not think he made ME a perfect world, wherein once evil is defeated, it is forever banished. I remember old Dumbledore saying to Harry, "evil cannot be fully defeated... just kept at bay" (I can't quote this, since I haven't got my HPHBP). I suppose it applies in our very own world, and in Arda too. They can't be 100% happy, the story's end has not got to be 100% happy. ~yavie Last edited by yavanna II; 01-06-2006 at 12:51 AM.

01-07-2006, 03:16 PM	#3
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	You know, I just realized that this is part of what makes The Hobbit so much different from LotR. The endings are so completely opposite. The Hobbit ends, if I recall correctly, with Gandalf and Bilbo (and others, I think) sitting around smoking pipeweed and recounting how good it is to be back to life as normal. And that's what it is. Bilbo goes back to the Shire and continues like it was before his grand adventure, that is, of course, after he gets all his stuff back. But really, that ending is really a very happy ending and almost gives the 'happily ever after' feeling. But with LotR, as is stated many times above, is not like that at all. It's not really negative, like 'they lived miserably ever after' but there's certainly no 'happily ever after.' This makes me think that this is why the Hobbit, on the whole, seems like such a more pleasant and 'feel good' tale as compared to LotR. Sure, I love them both, but they are very different, and this suddenly makes a lot of sense as to why. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.