LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 4 - The Field of Cormallen

[Child of the 7th Age]

Where did these sayings originate? And why, exactly, does the third time pay for all?

Regarding why the third time pays for all....

"Three" has a special meaning in fairy tales. For example, the hero is usually given three trials. He fails the first two and succeeds at the third. Thus, "three" is the path of wisdom. The number three is found in so many tales, and the third person or try often represents wisdom:

• 3 billy goats gruff: it is the third goat who bests the troll
• Goldilocks and the 3 bears--it is the third and littlest bear who finds Goldilocks
• 3 little pigs -- it's the third pig whose house prevails
• 3 sisters in the Cinderella story and the third daughter is "blessed" with looks and wisdom
• 3 sons in Puss in Boots and, of course, it's the third one who shows his wisdom by getting the cat

There are also three Graces (Greece), three Norns (past, present, future) of Norse myth, and, of course, the Trinity, all of these representing enlightenment. I known that some point to the mother/father/child triad as the origin of this usage with the child pointing to the path of wisdom.

I think Tolkien is using three in its traditional sense, as a tip of the hat to the Gaffer's experience or wisdom, which his son acknowleges. I do know you can google the phrase "third time pays for all" and come up with several modern instances of the phrase. But as to how this specific saying originates in the context of Middle-earth (or of our earth), I am not sure at all.

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P.S. I didn't see your edit till now. Very interesting. Notice also the use of three times three.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

I think Tolkien is using three in its traditional sense, as a tip of the hat to the Gaffer's experience or wisdom, which his son acknowleges. I do know you can google the phrase "third time pays for all" and come up with several modern instances of the phrase. But as to how this specific saying originates in the context of Middle-earth (or of our earth), I am not sure at all.

There are at least a couple of instances, other than the "three times three" instance where three could be seen as a significant number to the peoples of Middle-Earth.

There are three original kindreds of Elves: Minyar, Tatyar, Nelyar (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri).

There are three kindreds of Edain: Beorians, Halethrim, Hadorian.

There are three kindreds of Hobbits: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides.

There were three Great Lights: Pillars, Trees, Sun and Moon.

There were three Silmarils.

There were "three Rings for the Elvenkings".

There were three realms of divided Arnor: Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhuduar.

There were Three Ages, as of the Lord of the Rings.

And I'm sure there are more.

Now, admittedly, some of these would seem to be more coincidental than incidental, the three realms of Arnor, in particular. But several of these would be highly significant, such as the original kindreds and the Silmarils.

Of course, one can't say whether, in Middle-Earth, they had any connection to the saying "third time pays for all". A possibility for a fanfic, perhaps?

[Guinevere]

Shippey in a talk at Birmingham claims he counted over 70 proverbs in LotR.

I've found 80, so far. I have been collecting them for nearly 3 years now, since first I joined this game in "quotable quotes" and became intrigued by all those timeless wisdoms. I think Tolkien is quite unique in this respect!
In UT there are also a lot of proverbs (I found 20 so far, many said by Sador Labadal!)
See also Esty's game The Gaffer's mixed-up proverbs on the BD Homepage

Since English isn't my mothertongue I don't always know which of them are genuine traditional proverbs and which ones are made up by Tolkien - they all sound authentic!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Formendacil,

Excellent list!

Also, the quest to dispose of the Ring could not be accomplished by two. Frodo and Sam needed the help of Gollum. Surely, this is one of the most pivotal trios in the book.

LotR itself, in its conception, was a "double three", representing the original six books.

[Formendacil]

It's fascinating to reread this thread with its high praise for this chapter and mentions of it being personal favourites--because the thing that struck me most while I was rereading "The Field of Cormallen" was how... unreal it was.

Not in a bad sense! But the biggest moment that hit me in the chapter was the shift from Mordor to Ithilien, from the fumes of Orodruin to the herbs of Cormallen. And two weeks pass! Frodo waking in the House of Elrond was but the prefigurement of this moment.

Part of the reason for my sense of unreality is no doubt that we are here seeing the story at its most heightened: not just the words, but the events themselves, are like something out of a legend or medieval epic. Sam's bewilderment, wondering if somehow all bad things are veing undone, describes the whiplash of this chapter, coming on the heels of the starvation, exhaustion, desperation, and injury of the previous chapter.