The Hobbit - Chapter 01 - An Unexpected Party - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kath · 01-15-2006, 03:27 PM

Having just flicked through the first chapter now, I came across something that I remember loving when I was younger, and that's the way that Tolkien writes it to be read. It's as if he is creating it for an audience that is there with him, who can interrupt and question him and who he has to keep the suspense for.

Quote:

This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. he may have lost the neighbour's respect, but he gained - well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end.

Quote:

The mother of our particular hobbit - what is a hobbit? I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us.

It feels like you as a reader are directly involved in the story from the very beginning, and all the description pulls you in, so you feel that you are really there. It also feels personalised thanks to the continued use of the word 'you'.

I love the conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf at the beginning as well with the variations on ‘Good morning’ and poor Bilbo being so confused.

As for talking down to children, I don't believe it does. The sheer amount of description in it takes a lot of concentration and understanding. I wonder if it's just that everything is slightly happier. As in the Elves being jolly rather than ethereal and Gandalf having very little in the way of a deeper/darker side.

Quote:

Although, I am often thrown by Gandalf's use of the phrase, "Very amusing for me" when describing sending Bilbo on this Adventure. I always saw it as Tolkien trying to show a malicious side to Gandalf, that he wasn't all good.
Any thoughts?

I don't know that it's malicious exactly. More like he knew that Bilbo was going to be ok, that he'd manage to get through everything that was thrown at him, and it was more the way that Bilbo approached these tasks that he found amusing.

Essex · 01-15-2006, 05:48 PM

I've got the 1991 version of the 'original' (amongst other battered paperback versions) - ie tolkien's cover and colour pictures inside.

I first was forced to read the Hobbit in school when I was around 11. I HATED being told what to read so rebelled against it. I remember the first line, the spiders and bilbo's journey in the barrel from that first read. It was a few years until I read it agin, and that was because I had got into LOTR.

The other thing I remember is us discusssing Gandalf - oh there he goes s**ding off again! Little did I know what he was up to............. (now wouldn't THAT work well in a hobbit movie - the White Council - with flashbacks to his trips to Dol Guldur too?)

Oh yes, and 11 year olds Essex lads being able to say in classroom - 'I don't give a toss' as Gandalf says and then laughing our heads off! Priceless!

davem · 01-16-2006, 01:06 PM

As we're discussing The Hobbit I thought you might be interested in this film clip of Tolkien talking about writing it you'll need RealPlayer (just click 'Play Video: at the top of the page

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/video/vie...47&pld=780x515

Tuor in Gondolin · 01-16-2006, 04:13 PM

I recommend the "Annotated Hobbit".
Not just for the notes and commentaries
on Tolkien revisions but also for the
illustrations of scenes and peoples in TH
by various countries' illustrators.

I'm not sure, I'll check, but I think it's Shippey,
who observes and analyses how Bilbo
and his world begins as a bourgouis
person and world, becomes fairytale
adventure and then returns to a middle class
world, especially by the language and allusions Bilbo uses.

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-18-2006, 07:13 AM

Here are a few random personal thoughts on this chapter:

If ever a sentence has cried out for a fan fiction (or RPG), it is this one:

Quote:

...the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took...

Wouldn't you just love to meet Bilbo's mother (at least in her younger days)? Of course, add to that the following one about the 'fairy wife' of a Took ancestor; I know of at least one well-written fan fiction on that notion (by mark12_30).

Other sentences or phrases that I find wonderful to read:

Quote:

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, where there was less noise and more green...

...warriors are busy fighting one another in distant lands, and in this neighbourhood heroes are scarce...

The explanation did not seem to explain. [This sentence is one I want to use when hearing politicians and officials speak!]

Child of the 7th Age · 01-18-2006, 10:15 AM

Tuor -

I'm also using the Annotated Hobbit (the modern one published in 2002). Also like you, I am enamored of the illustrations. I especially like the fact that the drawings come from editions of the Hobbit that have been published in different countries. It's the only source I know that does this.

Esty -

I'm glad that you mentioned Belladonna Took. It's always struck me as a little odd that Belladonna figures so prominently in the first chapter, if only by name, but that she is the only female explicitly mentioned in the entire book. We don't even have a character like Shelob, let alone a Galadriel or an Arwen! (If someone else can cite another female character in The Hobbit, please let me know.) Maybe this is simply because his listeners were his sons John and Michael rather than anything more than that? Younger sister Priscilla was apparently too young to join the group.

I love how Tolkien uses the parents to set up the two different sides of Bilbo's personality: the staid Baggins type and the adventurious Tooks. How intriguing that Tolkien suggests a possible tie-in between the Tooks and the fairies (presumably the Elves). Even in the 1937 edition, long before LotR or Frodo was a glimmer in the eyes of the author, JRRT mentions the local belief that the Tooks may have had an ancestor who married into a fairy family. I think he picks up on this idea again in the beginning of LotR when he talks about the differences between Harfoot, Fallohides, and Stoors. The Fallohides look and act a bit like miniature Elves!

Why does Tolkien throw open the possibility of a fairy/hobbit union? Is the physical and personality resemblance of the Tooks completely a coincidence, or could there actually have been a union between a Took and an Elf back in the old days when Hobbits were still wandering about Middle-earth before their settlement in the Shire? There have been plenty of fanfictions which are built on the latter premise, and I know it's been discussed in the Books section before. I doubt the latter idea seriously crossed Tolkien's mind when he was writing down the text of The Hobbit, but could he have remembered the possibility later on when he composed LotR and went on to discuss such things as "the light in Frodo's eyes"?

As you can see from this post, I am very guilty of one thing. I find it almost impossible to read The Hobbit on its own. When I first read this book, I was about 13 years old and had not yet read LotR. (The Ballentine edition hadn't even come out then, so very few people in the U.S. knew anything about Sauron or Frodo.) At that time, I was able to read The Hobbit on its own, appreciating it for what it is and not asking that it be anything more. Now I keep remembering things In LotR or in Unfinished Tales, and demanding to know why Tolkien changed this, or how something in The Hobbit foreshadows something else in LotR. In a way that's too bad, since I've lost the immediacy of the text. Plus, at first, I felt fairly guilty about this way of approaching things. Surely, the author wouldn't want us to read his book "backwards", which is sort of what I am doing.

But then I remembered what happened to Tolkien when he told the story: the characters from the wider Legendarium kept knocking on the door and inserting themselves into his children's story. I guess life is like that. You can't compartmentalize things you've experienced or thought about: they all run together and influence each other!

I know Davem has mentioned that he views The Hobbit as outside Tolkien's Legendarium. His statement struck me. I suppose that could be so, depending on how you define "Legendarium". But my gut feeling is that it's difficult to exclude the Hobbit from this wider body of writings. The story is just too important in how it set up the main characters and the story line for LotR. Frankly. I have an easier time including The Hobbit as part of the Legendarium than I do some of the earliest material in The Book of Lost Tales, which seems to be radically different than the later writings by Tolkien. I can't think about Bilbo in The Hobbit without considering what was to happen to him later. Maybe that's right or wrong but it's a given I can not change.

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-18-2006, 11:56 AM

We discussed the background for Belladonna's name on this thread, so I won't go into that here.

I found it interesting to look up her sisters' names on the family tree, since they are not mentioned elsewhere: Donnamira and Mirabella. That is a chain of syllables, and each sister shares half of her name with each of the others. However, that is not really relevant to this chapter...

01-16-2006, 01:06 PM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	As we're discussing The Hobbit I thought you might be interested in this film clip of Tolkien talking about writing it you'll need RealPlayer (just click 'Play Video: at the top of the page http://uk.search.yahoo.com/video/vie...47&pld=780x515 __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

01-16-2006, 04:13 PM	#4
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	I recommend the "Annotated Hobbit". Not just for the notes and commentaries on Tolkien revisions but also for the illustrations of scenes and peoples in TH by various countries' illustrators. I'm not sure, I'll check, but I think it's Shippey, who observes and analyses how Bilbo and his world begins as a bourgouis person and world, becomes fairytale adventure and then returns to a middle class world, especially by the language and allusions Bilbo uses. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

01-18-2006, 10:15 AM	#6
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Tuor - I'm also using the Annotated Hobbit (the modern one published in 2002). Also like you, I am enamored of the illustrations. I especially like the fact that the drawings come from editions of the Hobbit that have been published in different countries. It's the only source I know that does this. Esty - I'm glad that you mentioned Belladonna Took. It's always struck me as a little odd that Belladonna figures so prominently in the first chapter, if only by name, but that she is the only female explicitly mentioned in the entire book. We don't even have a character like Shelob, let alone a Galadriel or an Arwen! (If someone else can cite another female character in The Hobbit, please let me know.) Maybe this is simply because his listeners were his sons John and Michael rather than anything more than that? Younger sister Priscilla was apparently too young to join the group. I love how Tolkien uses the parents to set up the two different sides of Bilbo's personality: the staid Baggins type and the adventurious Tooks. How intriguing that Tolkien suggests a possible tie-in between the Tooks and the fairies (presumably the Elves). Even in the 1937 edition, long before LotR or Frodo was a glimmer in the eyes of the author, JRRT mentions the local belief that the Tooks may have had an ancestor who married into a fairy family. I think he picks up on this idea again in the beginning of LotR when he talks about the differences between Harfoot, Fallohides, and Stoors. The Fallohides look and act a bit like miniature Elves! Why does Tolkien throw open the possibility of a fairy/hobbit union? Is the physical and personality resemblance of the Tooks completely a coincidence, or could there actually have been a union between a Took and an Elf back in the old days when Hobbits were still wandering about Middle-earth before their settlement in the Shire? There have been plenty of fanfictions which are built on the latter premise, and I know it's been discussed in the Books section before. I doubt the latter idea seriously crossed Tolkien's mind when he was writing down the text of The Hobbit, but could he have remembered the possibility later on when he composed LotR and went on to discuss such things as "the light in Frodo's eyes"? As you can see from this post, I am very guilty of one thing. I find it almost impossible to read The Hobbit on its own. When I first read this book, I was about 13 years old and had not yet read LotR. (The Ballentine edition hadn't even come out then, so very few people in the U.S. knew anything about Sauron or Frodo.) At that time, I was able to read The Hobbit on its own, appreciating it for what it is and not asking that it be anything more. Now I keep remembering things In LotR or in Unfinished Tales, and demanding to know why Tolkien changed this, or how something in The Hobbit foreshadows something else in LotR. In a way that's too bad, since I've lost the immediacy of the text. Plus, at first, I felt fairly guilty about this way of approaching things. Surely, the author wouldn't want us to read his book "backwards", which is sort of what I am doing. But then I remembered what happened to Tolkien when he told the story: the characters from the wider Legendarium kept knocking on the door and inserting themselves into his children's story. I guess life is like that. You can't compartmentalize things you've experienced or thought about: they all run together and influence each other! I know Davem has mentioned that he views The Hobbit as outside Tolkien's Legendarium. His statement struck me. I suppose that could be so, depending on how you define "Legendarium". But my gut feeling is that it's difficult to exclude the Hobbit from this wider body of writings. The story is just too important in how it set up the main characters and the story line for LotR. Frankly. I have an easier time including The Hobbit as part of the Legendarium than I do some of the earliest material in The Book of Lost Tales, which seems to be radically different than the later writings by Tolkien. I can't think about Bilbo in The Hobbit without considering what was to happen to him later. Maybe that's right or wrong but it's a given I can not change. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 01-18-2006 at 10:23 AM.

01-18-2006, 11:56 AM	#7
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	We discussed the background for Belladonna's name on this thread, so I won't go into that here. I found it interesting to look up her sisters' names on the family tree, since they are not mentioned elsewhere: Donnamira and Mirabella. That is a chain of syllables, and each sister shares half of her name with each of the others. However, that is not really relevant to this chapter... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-15-2006, 05:48 PM	#2
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	I've got the 1991 version of the 'original' (amongst other battered paperback versions) - ie tolkien's cover and colour pictures inside. I first was forced to read the Hobbit in school when I was around 11. I HATED being told what to read so rebelled against it. I remember the first line, the spiders and bilbo's journey in the barrel from that first read. It was a few years until I read it agin, and that was because I had got into LOTR. The other thing I remember is us discusssing Gandalf - oh there he goes s**ding off again! Little did I know what he was up to............. (now wouldn't THAT work well in a hobbit movie - the White Council - with flashbacks to his trips to Dol Guldur too?) Oh yes, and 11 year olds Essex lads being able to say in classroom - 'I don't give a toss' as Gandalf says and then laughing our heads off! Priceless!