LotR1-FotR-Seq12 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-17-2006, 06:10 PM

Tuor in Gondolin, that's what I was referring to, Gandalf the Grey. Certainly not the White. I agree with you 100% on that.

Boromir 88, I was just saying those were the three best for this particular film. And I'm not at all trying to denigrate the contributions of the other actors. I would say this is perhaps the best ensemble cast ever. Every one of them is a phenomenal actor or actress. Really, what it boils down to is which actors got the best material to work with. I'd probably give it to Serkis and Otto for TTT, and Wood and Astin for ROTK.

Lathriel · 01-18-2006, 06:27 PM

The one thing I don't like of this sequence is when Galadriel goes all crazy. I thought that was way over the top. (Now the people, who don't remember her name, think of her as the crazy lady!) I thought this could have been done with more subtelty.
I also didn't agree with Lothlorien in the theatre cut. It was way to dark for me and the EE edition realy made me happy since it showed more light.
I liked the "Lembas commercial" that Legolas gave to the Hobbits since Lembas is never explained and it is a key part to how Frodo and Sam survive on their journey to Mordor.

I think Aragorn nudged Gimli because Gimli was snoring and it was disrepectful for Sam who was just saying his poem and trying to do his best.

Notice that as Boromir talks about Minas Tirith we hear the Minas Tirith theme in the background.

Essex · 01-19-2006, 03:17 AM

Elves are dangerous as well as beautiful. They are not all light and 'goodness' - an example is the Kin slaying. To me they are just as imperfect as Men. They can be petulant, angry, dangerous, 'slopey shouldered' and tempted just as Men are.

Therefore, I don't see Lothlorien as a light and wonderful place. I admit I only had this view after reading the Silmarillion and realising what the Elves really were like. LOTR doesn't give this impression too much.

I'm wondering whether the scriptwriters' took the Silmarillion in mind when creating the Elves and their habitats.

PS regarding the 'temptation scene' - how would have you guys (who disagree with jackson's potrayal) have handled it? How would you have her standing there uttering

Quote:

You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!

I think the clues in the amount of exclamation marks Tolkien uses here. She's SHOUTING!

And then the light and the 'terrible' looking Galadriel. From Tolkien:

Quote:

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.

I can see why Jackson went the way he did. It's a great cinematic moment, perfectly showing Galadriel's power and temptation. And then to finish

Quote:

Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. 'I pass the test,' she said. `I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.'

And this is just PERFECT from Kate Blanchet. One of the best delivered lines in the whole movie. The way she quakes, shivers and then composes herself before resigning herself to her Fate. Marvelous.

alatar · 01-19-2006, 10:12 AM

I'm with you on this one, Essex, regarding Cate and the temptation.

Lothlorien, however, was just too dark - not meaning evil - but just dark. Even in starlight elves and their homes should appear magical - otherworldly - and to me PJ just made it look like some part of Moria with better-lit stairways. Again I think that showing Lothlorien would be a real chore, and so no slight to PJ, but I just didn't like the scenery.

No "Wow!"

drigel · 01-19-2006, 12:56 PM

Lorien was one of my favorite parts of LOTR. And that does make me a bit more ciritcal of the scene in the movie. That being said, I understand with what PJ said in the commentaries about how he wanted to display in Lorien the more dark and dangerous side of elves, as opposed to what was shown at Rivendell. But the subtely was lost in the effort. With the exception of the EE scene of Caras Galadhon, and then at the depature, it was always night time there, ugh.

Blanchet did well. I felt as though she really understood the character, but...

Quote:

Quote:
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.

I can see why Jackson went the way he did. It's a great cinematic moment, perfectly showing Galadriel's power and temptation

With all the magical special effects and CG in these movies, I was most disappointed in that scene. It looked way to cheesy for me. Almost circa 1978 technology, with that negative image look to her. If you refer to that quote in the book, well then for me:
tall - mabye
beautiful - NO
terrible - YES
worshipful - NO

alatar · 01-23-2006, 10:23 AM

After listening to the "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm" chapter this morning, it struck me regarding why I don't like this Aragorn.

In the books, Aragorn is the pupil of Gandalf. During the FotR's journey from Rivendell to Moria it is Aragorn and Gandalf that take council together, and even when they would disagree it is amicable. Aragorn is concerned, not by the dark road through the Black Pit, but for Gandalf's well-being. And this is what struck me: When leaving his mentor behind in Moria, Aragorn salutes his fallen companion with Anduril before turning towards Lothlorien.

PJ's depiction of Aragorn doesn't demonstrate a relationship with Gandalf. We don't have two intertwined fates, just two parallel lives. Aragorn wants to get rid of the failed human race - Ring stigma (and win Liv, of course

), and Gandalf wants to help the hobbits and the other free folk by ridding ME of the Ring and subsequently Sauron. There is no connection between the two, and they are companions by chance and need.

There's no wizard's letter at Bree mentioning Aragorn, nor does the Grey Pilgrim state that he has traveled with Aragorn before, like when they searched for Gollum. PJ's Aragorn, then, cares not so much for Gandalf, and when the eight arrive outside the gates of Moria, he is simply ready to journey forth. Boromir, on the other hand, is shown to be more sympathetic, if not towards the wizard, with whom he had openly argued, then to his followers, like the hobbits (sword training, "give them a moment" outside Moria, and telling Frodo not to carry the death of Gandalf too).

This Aragorn may not try to claim the Ring, but other than that, what does he have over Boromir?

Essex · 01-23-2006, 10:34 AM

aragorn does not have Bormoir's:

Petulance - in thinking he is always correct and disagreeing whole heartedly with members
of the fellowship - e.g. everyone at the Council / Aragorn on the river Anduin

Childishness - e.g. acting like a child in Lothlorien as he has his view of Galadriel and will stick to it!

Condescending tone - e.g. rubbing frodo's head like a child when giving the ring back

Blinkered view - e.g. a warrior's point of view - For Gondor! for Gondor! For Gondor!

Level of temptation - e.g. Boromir's failed attempt to wrestle the Ring from Frodo

and so on and so forth.

I agree about the point of Aragorn's relationship with Gandalf not being focused on. Bring
on my 52 hour mini series to allow us to see this relationship!

Nogrod · 01-23-2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

This Aragorn may not try to claim the Ring, but other than that, what does he have over Boromir?

A total lack of charisma.

Of course, this is propably not a PJ choice only. Sean Bean just beats Viggo by 100% with stage presence, being believeable and real...

The problem with Aragorn in the movies may also be due to the inwardness of the screenplayed character. Aragorn seems merely to wrestle with himself and with his relationship with Arwen (even this too, is more about his solitary fight, not something where Arwen actively takes part- and that of course is going back to Tolkien and the weak role of women in the story), not with the real characters he is being in dealings with.

01-17-2006, 06:10 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Tuor in Gondolin, that's what I was referring to, Gandalf the Grey. Certainly not the White. I agree with you 100% on that. Boromir 88, I was just saying those were the three best for this particular film. And I'm not at all trying to denigrate the contributions of the other actors. I would say this is perhaps the best ensemble cast ever. Every one of them is a phenomenal actor or actress. Really, what it boils down to is which actors got the best material to work with. I'd probably give it to Serkis and Otto for TTT, and Wood and Astin for ROTK. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

01-18-2006, 06:27 PM	#2
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	The one thing I don't like of this sequence is when Galadriel goes all crazy. I thought that was way over the top. (Now the people, who don't remember her name, think of her as the crazy lady!) I thought this could have been done with more subtelty. I also didn't agree with Lothlorien in the theatre cut. It was way to dark for me and the EE edition realy made me happy since it showed more light. I liked the "Lembas commercial" that Legolas gave to the Hobbits since Lembas is never explained and it is a key part to how Frodo and Sam survive on their journey to Mordor. I think Aragorn nudged Gimli because Gimli was snoring and it was disrepectful for Sam who was just saying his poem and trying to do his best. Notice that as Boromir talks about Minas Tirith we hear the Minas Tirith theme in the background. __________________ Back again

01-19-2006, 10:12 AM	#4
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	I'm with you on this one, Essex, regarding Cate and the temptation. Lothlorien, however, was just too dark - not meaning evil - but just dark. Even in starlight elves and their homes should appear magical - otherworldly - and to me PJ just made it look like some part of Moria with better-lit stairways. Again I think that showing Lothlorien would be a real chore, and so no slight to PJ, but I just didn't like the scenery. No "Wow!" __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

01-23-2006, 10:23 AM	#6
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	After listening to the "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm" chapter this morning, it struck me regarding why I don't like this Aragorn. In the books, Aragorn is the pupil of Gandalf. During the FotR's journey from Rivendell to Moria it is Aragorn and Gandalf that take council together, and even when they would disagree it is amicable. Aragorn is concerned, not by the dark road through the Black Pit, but for Gandalf's well-being. And this is what struck me: When leaving his mentor behind in Moria, Aragorn salutes his fallen companion with Anduril before turning towards Lothlorien. PJ's depiction of Aragorn doesn't demonstrate a relationship with Gandalf. We don't have two intertwined fates, just two parallel lives. Aragorn wants to get rid of the failed human race - Ring stigma (and win Liv, of course ), and Gandalf wants to help the hobbits and the other free folk by ridding ME of the Ring and subsequently Sauron. There is no connection between the two, and they are companions by chance and need. There's no wizard's letter at Bree mentioning Aragorn, nor does the Grey Pilgrim state that he has traveled with Aragorn before, like when they searched for Gollum. PJ's Aragorn, then, cares not so much for Gandalf, and when the eight arrive outside the gates of Moria, he is simply ready to journey forth. Boromir, on the other hand, is shown to be more sympathetic, if not towards the wizard, with whom he had openly argued, then to his followers, like the hobbits (sword training, "give them a moment" outside Moria, and telling Frodo not to carry the death of Gandalf too). This Aragorn may not try to claim the Ring, but other than that, what does he have over Boromir? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

01-23-2006, 10:34 AM	#7
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	Aragorn v Boromir aragorn does not have Bormoir's: Petulance - in thinking he is always correct and disagreeing whole heartedly with members of the fellowship - e.g. everyone at the Council / Aragorn on the river Anduin Childishness - e.g. acting like a child in Lothlorien as he has his view of Galadriel and will stick to it! Condescending tone - e.g. rubbing frodo's head like a child when giving the ring back Blinkered view - e.g. a warrior's point of view - For Gondor! for Gondor! For Gondor! Level of temptation - e.g. Boromir's failed attempt to wrestle the Ring from Frodo and so on and so forth. I agree about the point of Aragorn's relationship with Gandalf not being focused on. Bring on my 52 hour mini series to allow us to see this relationship!