Public Research: Religion - What Confession Do You Belong to?

[HerenIstarion]

Verily it has been written:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

confessional debates are strictly prohibited – you are not supposed to battle over ‘whose faith is the True one’ – restrict to issues like whether Tolkien’s work has more or less meaning for you because of your faith

I suggest all would refrain from evaluative statements (it is silly, that is wise, this is nonsense etc) too

[Nogrod]

Well.

As we all know, Tolkien was deeply christian and had quite a many underlying religious themes going on behind his writing. Although he was much subtler than his more fanatic friend, Mr. Lewis.

"Stories of Narnia" do carry the card of christianity in a degree, that make them almost repulsing. It has too obvious metaphors to be swallowed with the storyline. They stand up from within the lines and demand attention. Sadly, that is not a good thing, at least on my view. Tolkien, on the other hand, managed to filtrate his "message" through pagan stories so that pagans like me can take the story as such and let the christian levels just bubble under.

So ten points to Tolkien, minus hundred points for Lewis!

But surely: without his religiosity, Tolkien would have not written as he did. So one cheer for that too?

I find more intresting the question, how do people of other (than caucasian & christian) races & faiths take the stories of Tolkien. Basically they seem to be stories of white males - with some exceptions - running the world & being heroes and individuals. An the darkness comes from the east, as it so often comes in european mythology.

[Formendacil]

I would be the first person to have put down the good Professor's own faith: the Catholic Church, in specific the Latrin Rite, with a touch of experience regarding the Greek Rite of the Ukrainian Patriarchy, and a general curiosity considering the Ambrosian Rite...

Of course, this isn't new news to anybody on this site who is acquainted with, and if you're on the list of those who are getting acquainted, then it's one of the first facts you'll learn, and if you're simply an anti-social boor who cares not a whit about me... then, well, I guess you won't be reading this post, now will you?

As far as my standing within the faith goes, I'm a very regular church-goer, involved in more Church functions than necessary, with hopes of a lifelong career in service to that Church. Similar to my wealth of useless Tolkien trivia, I collect minor facts of the Faith, and would consider my faith to be as orthodoxly in accord with the Vatican as is possible based on my knowledge of the faith. As far as being a Liberal/Conservative Catholic goes, I have conservative leanings, tempered with an appreciation for liberal positions that do not contract the orthodox faith, and would be be described as a Moderate-Conservative.

Is that enough?

Well, I can go on....

Despite a very firm conviction in the correctness of my own faith, I like to think that I am relatively ecumenical in my dealings with non-Catholics. Certainly, I have several non-Catholic friends whom I have not (yet) attempted to convert. I don't believe that non-Catholics are condemned to Hell. Religions in general interest me. Overall, I prefer a devout Muslim/Jew/Protestant/Wiccan over an apathetic Catholic....

Okay, I think that's more than you are all interested in hearing (not that you're likely to have made it this far into the post).

[the guy who be short]

Considering the non-existance of an Agnostic option, I'll vote for the closest thing, Atheist.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well.

As we all know, Tolkien was deeply christian and had quite a many underlying religious themes going on behind his writing. Although he was much subtler than his more fanatic friend, Mr. Lewis.

"Stories of Narnia" do carry the card of christianity in a degree, that make them almost repulsing. It has too obvious metaphors to be swallowed with the storyline. They stand up from within the lines and demand attention. Sadly, that is not a good thing, at least on my view. Tolkien, on the other hand, managed to filtrate his "message" through pagan stories so that pagans like me can take the story as such and let the christian levels just bubble under.

So ten points to Tolkien, minus hundred points for Lewis!

But surely: without his religiosity, Tolkien would have not written as he did. So one cheer for that too?

I find more intresting the question, how do people of other (than caucasian & christian) races & faiths take the stories of Tolkien. Basically they seem to be stories of white males - with some exceptions - running the world & being heroes and individuals. An the darkness comes from the east, as it so often comes in european mythology.

I really wouldn't describe poor old Clive Staples as a fanatic. Don't confuse him with the poor nutters scrambling over rival wardrobes who worship him as a quasi-saint-Lewis has always struck me as a (sadly increasingly rare) example of an emphatic Christian with a forgiving, accepting, even Dantean outlook. Pieces of pagan mythology that he was attracted by make it into Narnia-even the pagan god Bacchus. He mish-mashes traditions with gay abandon and whimsical flair that Tolkien aesthetically (not doctrinally) distrusted.

Appalling artistically though some parts of "the Last Battle" may be, and shocking though we may find the rejection of poor pretty Susan, there is also the episode of Emeth-a Calormene Tash-worshipper who has led a virtuous life and whom Aslan embraces. Not a fanatic's worldview.

As for Tolkien-I've never had a problem, though admittedly I'm in love with parts of the western legendary tradition, chivalry and all that sort of thing, so even though half-Eastern by blood I tend to identify with the west. I always feel the observation of the fallen Easterling by Sam (and other marginalia, like the eventual rehabilitation of the Blue Wizards) pretty much redeems any "anti-eastern" bias. As for Christianity, it is present only in principle, and I don't object to that principle at all, as it seems to me a decent guide to how to lead an examined and worthwhile life.

[Child of the 7th Age]

We are a traditional Jewish family. I personally am half Orthodox and half Conservative (if such a thing is possible). I like walking to synagogue and having one day that's different from the rest of the week, but I also like helping to lead the davening which I can only do in the local conservative synagogue. Interestingly, our extended family has people of many different faiths: Protestants, Catholics, and Moslems. We all get along fine. (Well, we might fight occasionally, but that has nothing to do with religion!)

Academically, I spent a lot of time studying the Christian religion in all its variations in the context of medieval and early modern history. The religious aspect of Tolkien deeply interests me, and I am sympathetic to his commitment, although it is not my own. My feelings about Lewis are more mixed. I agree that he was definitely not a fanatic. Plus, I absolutely love his "Till We Have Faces". Although this is Lewis' book that has the fewest allusions to traditional Christian doctrine or symbols, it is extremely deeply felt, perhaps because of his relationship with Joy. I actually have more of a sense of the "numinous" reading this than any of his other works.

[Amanaduial the archer]

I don't think- no, in fact, I'm fairly sure, that I've never actually mentioned my own personal faith on the Barrowdowns...

Marry together a Northern Irish Catholic and a Northern Irish Protestant, and apparently you get three Anglican sisters - or such is the case in my close family. Anyone who is at all familiar with Irish Politics will know the part that religion plays in the Northern Irish Question, and the turbulent relationship that has existed between Catholics and Protestants for, ooh, a good couple o' hundred years...

My mother is from quite a devout Roman Catholic family, my dad is from a good Methodist family, but both parents sort of gave up on religion after coming to Manchester University twenty-odd years ago, and after a few half-hearted attempts at getting my sisters and I to attend Sunday school - which I loathed - they gave up and resigned themselves to having a trio of miniature atheists, to the despair of both families as they watched their wayward offspring, having gone and married someone from 'the wrong faith' (yeah, you betcha the wedding was fun when my dad's uncle turned up rather pointedly wearing orange ), now let their children lapse into godlessness. Ah well. Still, to put it quite as cornily as possible, I was saved by the redeeming power of music (told you it would be corny - strictly tongue in cheek, never fear), and joined a Church choir just before my 11th birthday - and have been attending Church twice a week, come rain or shine, ever since, having gotten confirmed at 15 and becoming Head Chorister this year. Funny old world really; still, it keeps the grandparents happy.

Maybe it was because of my pretty non-religious upbringing that religion never really interfered with my viewing of Lord of the Rings, or certainly not when I was reading it when I was 11 or 12: I had very little concept of religion really at that time; it was just a fantastical story which I read sparked off by the fact that, having delighted in Pullman's Dark Materials, it had been one of my mother's favourite books. Now, if I was to read it again, maybe I would view this differently - I've got alot more religious over the last few years and, maybe due in part to the very diverse religious atmosphere within my school, maybe partly due also to having studied and loved R.S. at GCSE (and now carrying it onto AS Level), I'm fascinated with religion. I'm not a 'bible basher' as I have been accused of being: I just love the language, the background, the way religion makes people behave, the attitudes and psychological effects, the rituals - maybe the ritualistic element is why I chose the Church of England, mine is pretty High Church. And I don't flaunt my religion - they're my beliefs, they're personal, and I have no intention of converting anyone. But ask anyone in any of my classes: when analysing literature, if anyone will make a comment on religion, it'll be me. I have a tendency to scare student teachers by doing so - they don't generally expect the L6th former doodling on her folder to come out with Bible quotes. I mean, for example, for my English Literature coursework this year, I'm exploring Judeo-Christian religious allegory within 'The Tempest' - it's something I can easily see in literature, sometimes to the amazement but more often to the amusement of my classmates who are now used to it.

But that doesn't mean I can't detach myself from it, especially when it is disguised, without referencing religion with some degree of directness (as opposed to literature such as Narnia, as has been mentioned, where the references to Christianity are riiight there): Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings primarily, I think, as a story - an epic, fantastical story but a story nonetheless, and this is first and foremost what it should, therefore, be viewed as. As an 11 year old atheist, I did not read Lord of the Rings with any concept of alterior meanings in it, and I certainly didn't read it because I'm Christian - and my faith in no way, therefore, affected my enjoyment of Lord of the Rings. Maybe if I were to re-read it now that might be different...

Hope this helps anyway

I personally am half Orthodox and half Conservative (if such a thing is possible).

When you say Conservative, Child, is this the same as Reform Judaism? Just wondering really, I'm guessing the two words have the same meanings...

[Formendacil]

And I thought MY religious history was overly wordy....

Nice work, Amanaduial. I'd rep you for it, but it appears that I've been stingy with my rep of late...

Originally Posted by Amanaduial the archer

When you say Conservative, Child, is this the same as Reform Judaism? Just wondering really, I'm guessing the two words have the same meanings...

Well, I'm obviously no Jew, but I understand there to be (roughly) three basic kinds of Jew: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform, with the Orthodox having the most old-fashioned, stricter interpretations, and the Reform being on the other end, and the Conservatives somewhere in the middle.

However, I'm sure Child or someone else will correct/build on that... and I'm not sure how Hassidic Jews fit in...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I appologise for having offended you firefoot, (and everybody els) I sertanly did not mean to. I have great respect for all of the great religions for there teachings of moral and humanity.

When I used the word nonsence, I was refering to the more spiritual aspects of the faith. All the metaphysical stuff does cannot in anyway be proved by empirical means , it is all about your faith and faith is often highly irrational.

Firefoot, I don't think Rune is being particular. He's just giving Lutheranism the respect he accords to religion in general. His prophet says it's the opium of the masses!

Correct. It was a genneral statement and yes on this point I agree with Marx. I do belive that religion has been used to delute the masses and therefor would love for more people to consentrat on making a heaven on earth, insteat of chasing the key to heaven.

But hey! Ideolegies have been used to delute people to and to ensure all power to a little group off people. Just see what happend in Sovjet.

I will go back and edit my words if you want me to.