Narn i Chîn Húrin 3: The End of the Narn

[Aiwendil]

Are you fine with NA-EX-59 and NA-EX-60?

Yes.

I have given the matter of the Dragon-helm some more thought. It still seems to me that the note in which the Helm is given to Hurin was superceded by WH. The crucial point, it seems to me, is that in the original note the new lord of Brethil gave the Helm to Hurin. I don't think there can be any doubt that at this stage, that lord was imagined to be sympathetic to Hurin and that the Helm was given in friendship; if some other story lay behind the gesture, I'm sure this would have been mentioned. The introduction of Hardang makes the note obselete, in my opinion.

I certainly acknowledge that it's possible that Tolkien would have re-introduced the Helm had he continued WH. But this is just one of many cases where there is something Tolkien might have done. Moreover, it seems to me very likely that, had he still envisioned the Helm coming to Hurin, he would have mentioned it in one of the outlines for the continuation of WH.

So it looks like I'm still against giving the Helm to Hurin.

[Findegil]

NA-EX-61.5: I can understand your point. And I must admiss that non of my own tries was fully statisfaying for myself. So we will take your suggestion and skip simply the sentence "So passed all that he possessed."

It seems we are done with this chapter for the moment. It is a pity that in the moment are only two of us are active. I fell that in this way we can not produce anything final. Nevertheless I will produce a new version of the text as soon as I get a bit of time for it. Happily the project had been going so slow that I was able to keep up with the changes discussed here. I only must make a final check if I have done all the changes.

Are we going on in the same way with Beren & Luthien?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It is a pity that in the moment are only two of us are active.

I agree completely. Perhaps we should send (or offer to send) our Turin and Ruin of Doriath texts out to a few of those who were at one time heavily involved with the project - Lindil, Maedhros, perhaps Mister Underhill and Mithadan.

I suppose Beren and Luthien is next. I will take a look at that thread as soon as I get a chance.

[Findegil]

I thought about sending what we have done out to some properbly still interested people myself. On the other hand we could maybe make some advertising in the Books Forum?

Anyway what will be needed is the text of "Túrin" as it stand now. I will try to produce it in the longrun of the next week.

I would like to hear any comment of yours to Beren and Luthien. But I have to warn you: as it stand now I did it all in one post. This might be a bit unhandy. Feel free to set a breakpoint in the discussion when ever you think it is fitting.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I agree completely. Perhaps we should send (or offer to send) our Turin and Ruin of Doriath texts out to a few of those who were at one time heavily involved with the project - Lindil, Maedhros, perhaps Mister Underhill and Mithadan.

Although sadly I have been unable to participate as I used to in the Project, I have been keeping an eye on the discussion.
I would not have been any help with the verse part in general.

I have given the matter of the Dragon-helm some more thought. It still seems to me that the note in which the Helm is given to Hurin was superceded by WH. The crucial point, it seems to me, is that in the original note the new lord of Brethil gave the Helm to Hurin. I don't think there can be any doubt that at this stage, that lord was imagined to be sympathetic to Hurin and that the Helm was given in friendship; if some other story lay behind the gesture, I'm sure this would have been mentioned. The introduction of Hardang makes the note obselete, in my opinion.

I certainly acknowledge that it's possible that Tolkien would have re-introduced the Helm had he continued WH. But this is just one of many cases where there is something Tolkien might have done. Moreover, it seems to me very likely that, had he still envisioned the Helm coming to Hurin, he would have mentioned it in one of the outlines for the continuation of WH.

As I recalled, that was your point way before in the discussion. To me personally, I would have liked to keep the Dragon-helm so that when Húrin reached Menegroth, in his speech with Thingol he would have given that to him.
But I guess that you are right and alas, Húrin should not get it.

[Findegil]

Nice that you are still around Maedhros!

One last and nearly desparate idea would be to insert an note at Húrins death that with him the Dragon-helm disapeared. In that way we could make clear that Húrin got the Helm but we could let the way in which this happened completly unmentioned. Thus the core-idea of the note that Húrin got the Dragon-helm back would be kept.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
I have given the matter of the Dragon-helm some more thought. It still seems to me that the note in which the Helm is given to Hurin was superceded by WH. The crucial point, it seems to me, is that in the original note the new lord of Brethil gave the Helm to Hurin. I don't think there can be any doubt that at this stage, that lord was imagined to be sympathetic to Hurin and that the Helm was given in friendship; if some other story lay behind the gesture, I'm sure this would have been mentioned. The introduction of Hardang makes the note obselete, in my opinion.

I certainly acknowledge that it's possible that Tolkien would have re-introduced the Helm had he continued WH. But this is just one of many cases where there is something Tolkien might have done. Moreover, it seems to me very likely that, had he still envisioned the Helm coming to Hurin, he would have mentioned it in one of the outlines for the continuation of WH.

So it looks like I'm still against giving the Helm to Hurin.

Originally posted by Findegil
One last and nearly desparate idea would be to insert an note at Húrins death that with him the Dragon-helm disapeared. In that way we could make clear that Húrin got the Helm but we could let the way in which this happened completly unmentioned. Thus the core-idea of the note that Húrin got the Dragon-helm back would be kept.

I would have liiked nothing better than for Húrin to get the Dragon-helm back but I don't think that we can use the last idea. There is no mention in the note that at Húrin's death, he had with him the helm, unless I'm mistaken.
I think that Aiwendil, alas have made a very strong point about the helm.