The Hobbit - Chapter 03 - A Short Rest

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What do Elves smell like? Bilbo’s remark makes me wonder. We do find out how they rhyme – with a lot of nonsense! There have been past discussions on how to reconcile “Tra-la-la-lally” with “The Lay of Leithian”; this is your opportunity to share your opinions. We see them laughing – a huge contrast to the melancholy Elves of the Legendarium.

I'm very much inclined to think of this rhyme, which so clearly describes our adventurers' exact conditions at the time, as the elves having a bit of sport with Bilbo and dwarves. Why must we always think that art, song, music reflects the feelings of the authors? Why don't we consider that the artists might be thinking of the feelings of their audience and playing with that?

After all, Gandalf has told us he has sent news of their arrival ahead, so why wouldn't the elves be inclined to take a comic look at the brave lads who would fight dragons but who can't find a path in the forest?

Yes, I think this is it. Elves are very much so superior that they must find some kind of game or play on which to expend some of that intellectual and aesthetic energy. Not that they mean to be cruel or unkind, just that, well, they have all this excess energy in them and they must work it out some way and what better way than to create nonsense verse that puts their audience--Bilbo and the dwarves--in a perspective very much different from that which the adventurers themselves feel about themself?

Come to think of it, elves might make very excellent internet monkeys, as least these elves might. They are, after all, tricksome creatures of the perilous realm.

Originally Posted by Lal

Rivendell is also a much more welcoming place than Lothlorien. This is possibly as it is located in a safer place, Galadriel's realm being closer to Mordor, but even though it is out of the way and quite difficult to find, it is still open to those who need to find it. Men, Dwarves and Hobbits are welcomed here - it is something of a strategic centre in Middle-earth, and a haven too.

Hmm. I wonder, too, if the nature of the leader also has an influence in how these retreats are viewed? The authoritative male figure is seen as a supportive fatherly figure while the goddess figure is much more ambivalent?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Hmm. I wonder, too, if the nature of the leader also has an influence in how these retreats are viewed? The authoritative male figure is seen as a supportive fatherly figure while the goddess figure is much more ambivalent?

That's probably right, as we hear Elrond being referred to as "Kind as summer" whereas Galadriel's friends are accused of being "net-weavers and sorcerers". I wonder though how much of this is due to the respective leaders being male or female and how much is due to the degree to which these realms have 'retreated' from the mortal world?

It is only Rivendell which is not entirely perilous as far as Elven realms go, as Thranduil is also highly suspicious - maybe Rivendell is the only Elven realm in the history of Middle-earth which welcomes visitors in this way?

[Thinlómien]

Humans probably counted more on/appreciated Elrond because
1) The elves of Rivendell (and Grey Havens) had been allies with men, f.g. in the wars against Angband.
2) Rivendell was probably a more welcoming place than Lothlórien; in Rivendell everybody was welcomed and cared for whereas in Lothlórien you could be pierced by an arrow if you couldn't explain yourself and very few Men were let to enter the kingdom.
3) Elrond descended from Men as well from the Elves, so maybe the Men (subconsciously) felt some kind of connection to him.

[Raynor]

In general, there were great migrations from Estolad ("many thousands") to the realms of three houses of the noldor in Middle Earth, as told in Of the coming of Men into the West, Silmarillion - the reason being that the noldor saw hope in their great numbers in the war against Melkor. In particular, we know that Fingolfin, king of all the noldor, sent messages of welcome to them and Caranthir offer a part of his land and protection to the people of Haleth. For a good while, elves and men lived together in these realms - until the Firstborn realised that the Men need their own leaders and domains.

I believe they were most welcome in the land of Finrod Felagund, seeing that: he was the first to discover them; he often visited them before these great moves; he obtained from Thingol the permission for the people of Haleth to dwell in Brethil, (which Greymantle claimed as his own).

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

the name 'Alfred' means 'elf-friend'

Actually Ælfred means 'Elf-counsel' (i.e. counselled by elves). The name you're thinking of is Ælfwine.

I think that it's possible to go too far in trying to tie in the Elves of The Hobbit with those of the Silmarillion and LotR. Had Tolkien realised that he would come to write a more serious and adult sequel, and had he realised that he would use the more Germanic elves of his Silmarillion legends in the later story, he would probably have written more serious-minded Elves for The Hobbit. However, in so doing he would probably have been compelled to write different parts for the Elves of Mirkwood, dropping the drunken gaoler, then possibly the barrel escape and the arrival at Lake-town. Although it can be disappointing to do so, sometimes we have to accept that this is a fictional story which has been cleverly but imperfectly grafted onto an older set of legends of which it was never fully intended to be a part. I am sure that Tolkien did regret later some of the less congruous touches, particularly once he realised the directions in which his sequel was developing. Nevertheless he did write them, and they reflect his early ideas concerning the proper content of children's stories. His total rejection of this thinking once The Hobbit had come out is one of the reasons why we have such a marked division between the nature of elves in his earlier and later published works. One of the reasons, since his interest in the developing legends of Middle-earth had clearly grown to such an extent by the time he sat down to write a sequel that he was unable to maintain a distinction between the Shire stories and the legends of Beleriand, and came to combine the two. This was unfortunate for The Hobbit since it transforms it from a charming and well-conceived children's story into an episode of the Matter of Arda, in which niche it does not sit at all comfortably.

I'm not sure that there's any significance in the difference between the perceptions of Elrond and Galadriel among the mortals of LotR. Elrond has clearly taken more of an interest in human affairs, particularly in his relations with the Northern Dúnedain, who are his main mortal contacts. The attitudes we see in LotR towards Galdriel are expressed by Rohirrim, who are separated from Rivendell by the Misty Mountains. If word had ever come to them of Imaldris, it would have seemed a myth after passing through so many mouths (after all it had become a legend in Gondor, where written records were kept that went back to Isildur's time). Also, being hidden in the wilderness, Elrond's people are less accessible to prying eyes and minds, and less likely to be the stuff of dark local legend; but Lórien is close enough to Rohan to be feared. Perhaps Celeborn and Galdriel were just unlucky to acquire such excitable neighbours.

[Lobelia]

While Squatter probably has it right about why the Elves of The Hobbit are so different from those of LOTR (spoilsport! ) I would like to think that they aren't entirely different, they just don't speak modern English. Remember that scene after supper in Rivendell where Bilbo recites his poem, much to the applause of the Elves? Whatever we think of their seriousness, Bilbo certainly seems to enjoy living there. For him, it's still the place to be if you want to eat, sleep, read or whatever. It's still a wonderful place to be, the very essence of hospitality and comfort, a break from the troubles of the outside world. The Elves of Lothlorien live a lot closer to the troubles and are, in general, a more serious bunch. But even here, there is a similar description of what it's like to be visiting Lorien, and Sam says that, among other things Galadriel is merry.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm very much inclined to think of this rhyme, which so clearly describes our adventurers' exact conditions at the time, as the elves having a bit of sport with Bilbo and dwarves. Why must we always think that art, song, music reflects the feelings of the authors? Why don't we consider that the artists might be thinking of the feelings of their audience and playing with that?

After all, Gandalf has told us he has sent news of their arrival ahead, so why wouldn't the elves be inclined to take a comic look at the brave lads who would fight dragons but who can't find a path in the forest?

...brilliant and funny. That will give me a chuckle throughout the day...

Tralalalally! Come back to the valley! Ha ha!

...how I wish I could. The midsummer dances of the Rivendell elves on the riverbank under the stars are one of the most magical moments for me in the entire legendarium.