The Hobbit Survivor

[Lalaith]

I will probably be open to suggestions if Belladonna Borgia is gravely threatened

I also, your sublime magnificence.

I would incidentally like to avail myself of the opportunity absolve the lovely Lucrezia Borgia of the terrible and very unfair slurs that popular historical propaganda has tainted her with. You know how poor old Canute has been so wrongly painted as the proverbial foolish king who thought he ruled over the sea, when in fact he was a wise man trying to show his obsequious subjects that his powers were limited? Well, his historical libelling is but a picnic in the park compared to that endured by Lucrezia, the so-called "femme fatale poisoner".
The real Lucrezia was an exceptionally beautiful and sweet-natured woman, who was in her youth used as a pawn in the political games of her insanely murderous birth-family. However, she never willingly participated in any of their wicked activities, and by the time of her third marriage, she was of an age and maturity to get away from their black influence, and show her true colours.
As Duchess of Ferrara, she was greatly loved by her subjects, ruling wisely and well, and assembled an elegant and cultured court around her. She was known, in fact, as "the Good Duchess." An astonishing achievement for a girl brought up in the most appallingly depraved surroundings.

A parallel with the Tooks and Bagginses could be drawn here. Or it could not. You decide.

[Anguirel]

Tut tut, Lalaith! You've been reading too much Sarah Bradford, I deem...now, I like to keep Lucrezia as the Machiavellian survivor, femme fatale and patroness of the arts...

And then there was the "Roman Infant" business...all very murky, but it seems most likely she had Cesare's son. Particularly as he murdered her beloved second husband in a fit of jealous rage.

Why do Survivor debates lead inexorably to me discussing incest?

[Lalaith]

Who's Sarah Bradford? I read some book about the Borgias years ago but I'm sure I've never heard of her...you may keep any picture of Lucrezia in your mind that pleases you but one thing is certain, she was certainly a true survivor. Cesare was of course barking mad (his death was hilarious, leading a one-man charge on a fortified city) and what he subjected her to in her youth is anybody's guess.

Morm, as to your point, a. I'm voting tactically and b. I don't like golf. And as I've already said, I'm keeping options wide open today....

[Anguirel]

Sorry, shot in the dark. She published a biography of a "good duchess"-style Lucrezia a couple of years ago.

Actually, I'm a fan of Cesare, though his murder of Alfonso D'Aragona takes some forgiving. However flawed he was, he was a kind of genius, as Niccolo recognised. I love the image of him pursuing deer with packs of trained leopards, a veil over his face to hide the growing signs of syphilis. So enigmatic, almost beautiful. A sort of Maeglin figure on a Tolkien level I suppose...

[Lalaith]

It's fantasies like this that led us to the WWXIII debacle, my dear...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hmm. What wine goes with roast raven?
Well, perhaps one should consult
http://www.ravensdale-wines.co.uk/

+ + Roac

[Lalaith]

Ok, so that is the way the wind is blowing, and the crow is cawing.

--Bullroarer
++ROAC

Ang, we can sort out the old golfing bore another time.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

As a scientific experiment to see what it is like to be on the same side as The Saucepan Man.

You know it makes sense.

However, I will probably be open to suggestions if Belladonna Borgia is gravely threatened.

In that case, I hereby declare Roac the Save Belladonna Took vote.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I hereby declare Roac the Save Belladonna Took vote.

++ROAC