Narn i Chîn Húrin 3: The End of the Narn

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros, Lindil - great to see both of you.

Lindil, Findegil has posted the Turin text as it now stands in the private forum if you want to have a look. All rationales for the changes are of course to be found in the three Turin threads in the public forum.

[Findegil]

Lets come to the last bits of change found in this part of CoH.

...
At that the company fell silent, and some drew away, looking askance at the stranger. But one old vagabond man, with a crutch, said: ‘If you must speak the old tongue, master, speak it softer, and ask for no tidings. Would you be beaten for a rogue, or hung for a spy? For both you may well be by the looks of you. Which is but to say,’ he said, coming near and speaking low in Túrin's ear, ‘one of the kindly folk of old that came with Hador in the days of gold, before heads wore wolf-hair. Some here are of {that}NA-EX-58.2 <CoH like> sort, though now made beggars and slaves, and but for the Lady Aerin would get neither this fire nor this broth. Whence are you, and what news would you have?’
...
Then Brodda rose in wrath. ‘I rule this house,’ said he. But before he could say more, Túrin said: ‘Then you have not <CoH yet> learned the courtesy that was in this land before you. Is it now the manner of men to let lackeys mishandle the kinsmen of their wives? Such am I, and I have an errand to the Lady Aerin. Shall I come freely, or shall I come as I will?’
...
Therefore walking at guess she found the hill, which was indeed close at hand, by the rising of the ground before her feet; and slowly she climbed the path that led up from the east. And as she climbed so the fog grew thinner, until she came at last out into the sunlight on the bare summit. Then she stepped forward and looked westward. And there right before her was the great head of Glaurung, who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes NA-EX-59.1 <Coh had> looked in <Coh the fell spirit of> his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.
<Coh Strong was the will and heart of Niënor, and she>{Then Niënor} strove against Glaurung{, for she was strong in will}; but he put forth his power against her. ‘What seek you here?’ he said.
...
Thus they were assailed at unawares by a band of Orc-hunters, such as now roamed much in that region, as nigh to the fences of Doriath as they dared to go. In the midst of the affray suddenly Niënor leapt up from her couch, as one waking out of sleep to an alarm by night, and with a cry she sped away into the forest. Then the Orcs turned and gave chase and the Elves after them. But a strange changeNA-EX-59.2 <Coh had come>{came} upon Niënor and now she outran them all, flying like a deer among the trees with her hair streaming in the wind of her speed. The Orcs indeed Mablung and his companions swiftly overtook and they slew them one and all, and hastened on. But by then Niënor had passed away like a wraith; and neither sight nor slot of her could they find, though they hunted for many days.
...
Niënor in Brethil
But as for Niënor, she ran on into the wood, hearing the shouts of pursuit come behind; and her clothing she tore off, casting away her garments NA-EX-59.3 <Coh one by one> as she fled, until she went naked; and all that day still she ran, as a beast that is hunted to heart-bursting, and dare not stay or draw breath. But at evening suddenly her madness passed. She stood still a moment as in wonder, and then, in a swoon of utter weariness, she fell as one stricken down into a deep brake of fern. And there amid the old bracken and the swift fronds of spring she lay and slept, heedless of all.
...
But indeed it was a black storm that came up out of the South, laden with lightning and great rain; and she lay there cowering in terror of the thunder, and the dark rain smote her nakedness NA-EX-59.4 <CoH , and she watched without words as a wild thing that is traped>.
Now it chanced that some of the woodmen of Brethil came ...
...
In the morning they bore Níniel towards Ephel Brandir, and the road went steeply upward towards Amon Obel until it came to a place where it must cross the tumbling stream of Celebros. There a bridge of wood had been built, and below it the stream went over a lip of worn stone, and fell down by many foaming steps into a rocky bowl far below; and all the air was filled with spray like rain. There was a wide greensward at the head of the falls, and birches grew about it, but over the bridge there was a wide view towards the ravines of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] some two miles to the west. There the air was <CoH ever>cool and there wayfarers in summer would rest and drink of the cold water. Dimrost, the Rainy Stair, those falls were called, but after that day Nen Girith, the Shuddering Water; for Turambar and his men halted there, but as soon as Níniel came to that place she grew cold and shivered, and they could not warm her or comfort her.{ 24} Therefore they hastened on their way; but before they came to Ephel Brandir Níniel was already wandering in a fever.
...
And now Níniel was fully healed, and was grown fair and strong; and Turambar restrained himself no longer, but asked her in marriage. Then Níniel was glad; but when Brandir {learned}<CoH heard> of it his heart was sick within him, and he said to her: ‘Be not in haste! Think me not unkindly, if I counsel you to wait.’
...
‘But how can he come forward so?’ said {Dorlas}[Darlas]. ‘Lithe he may be, but he is a great Dragon, and how shall he climb down the one cliff and up the other, when part must again be climbing before the hinder NA-EX-60.1 <CoH part> is yet descended? And if he can so, what will it avail us to be in the wild water below?’
...
They set out therefore at dusk, and they did not go straight towards the Dragon, but took first the path to the Crossings; then, before they came so far, they turned southward by a narrow track and passed into the twilight of the woods above {Teiglin}[Taeglin].{ 26} And as they drew near to Cabed-en-Aras, step by step, halting often to listen, the reek of burning came to them, and a stench that sickened them. But all was deadly still, and there was no stir of air. The first stars glimmered in the East NA-EX-60.2{ behind}{<CoH before> them}, and faint spires of smoke rose straight and unwavering against the last light in the West.
...
When Níniel and her company had gone, Brandir said to those that remained: ‘Behold how I am scorned, and all my counsel disdained! NA-EX-60.3 <CoH Choose you another to lead you: for here I renounce both lordship and people.> Let Turambar be your lord in name, since already he has taken all my authority.{ For here I renounce both lordship and people.} Let none seek of me ever again either counsel or healing!’ And he broke his staff. To himself he thought: ‘Now nothing is left to me, save only my love of Níniel: therefore where she goes, in wisdom or folly, I must go. In this dark hour nothing can be foreseen; but it may well chance that even I could ward off some evil from her, if I were {near}<CoH nigh>.’
He girt himself therefore with a short sword, as seldom before, and took his crutch, and went with what speed he might out of the gate of the Ephel, limping after the others down the long path to the west march of Brethil.
...
Now there was need to be bold and swift, for though Turambar and Hunthor had escaped the blast, since they were not standing right in Glaurung's path, they yet had to come at him, before he passed over, or all their hope failed. Heedless of peril Turambar clambered along the water-edge {NA-EX-60.4 <CoH cliff>} to come beneath him; but there so deadly was the heat and the stench that he tottered and would have fallen if Hunthor, following stoutly behind, had not seized his arm and steadied him.
...
As Brandir came to Nen Girith the pallid moon was gone down, and the night was fading; morning was opening in the East. The people that cowered there still by the bridge saw him come like a grey shadow in the dawn, and some called to him in wonder: ‘Where have you been? Have you seen her? For the Lady Níniel is gone.’
‘Yes, NA-EX-61.1 <CoH’, said Brandir, ‘>she is gone{,’ he said}. {‘}Gone, gone, never to return! But I am come to bring you tidings. Hear now, people of Brethil, and say if there was ever such a tale as the tale that I bear! The Dragon is dead, but dead also is Turambar at his side. And those are good tiding: yes, both are good indeed.’
...
‘That is well then,’ he said. ‘Then I will go to my home. Is there a horse to bear me? Or a bier would be better. I faint with my labours.’
‘Nay, nay!’ said Brandir in anguish NA-EX-61.2 <CoH of heart>. ‘Your house is empty. Níniel is not there. She is dead.’
But one of the women – the wife of {Dorlas}[Darlas], who loved Brandir little – cried shrilly: ...
...
‘Cabed-en-Aras, Cabed Naeramarth!’ he cried. ‘I will not defile your waters where Níniel was washed. For all my deeds have been ill, and the latest the worst.’
Then he drew forth his sword, and said: ‘Hail Gurthang, iron of death, thou alone now {remainest} NA-EX-61.3 <CoH remain>! But what lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee? From no blood wilt thou shrink! Wilt thou take Túrin Turambar? Wilt thou slay me swiftly?’
...
{Thus}NA-EX-62.1 <CoH Here> ends the Tale of the Children of Húrin, longest of all the lays of Beleriand.

I see nothing to comment up to NA-EX-60.2.
NA-EX-60.2 and NA-EX-60.4: I did not take up this change. It was introduced by Christopher Tolkien and he gives the following explaination in the Appendix to CoH:

In the remainder of the story, from Túrin's return to Dor-lómin, to which my father gave a finished form, there are naturally very few differences from the text in Unfinished Tales. But there are two matters of detail in the account of the attack on Glaurung at Cabed-en-Aras where I have emended the original words and which should be explained.
The first concerns the geography. It is said (p.230) that when Túrin and his companions set out from Nen Girith on the fateful evening they did not go straight towards the Dragon, lying on the further side of the ravine, but took first the path towards the Crossings of Teiglin; and 'then, before they came so far, they turned southward by a narrow track' and went through the woods above the river towards Cabed-en-Aras. As they approached, in the original text of the passage, 'the first stars glimmered in the east behind them.'
When I prepared the text for Unfinished Tales I did not observe that this could not be right, since they were certainly not moving in a westerly direction, but east, or southeast, away from the Crossing, and the first stars in the east must have been before them, not behind them. When discussing this in The War of the Jewels (1994, p. 157) I accepted the suggestion that the 'narrow track' going southward turned again westward to reach the Teiglin. But this seems to me now to be improbable, as being without point in the narrative, and that a much simpler solution is to emend 'behind them' to 'before them', as I have done in the new text.
...
The second matter concerns the story of the slaying of Glaurung at the crossing of the ravine. There are here a draft and a final version. In the draft, Túrin and his companions climbed up the further side of the chasm until they came beneath the brink; they hung there as the night passed, and Túrin 'strove with dark dreams of dread in which all his will was given to clinging and holding'. When day came Glaurung prepared to cross at a point 'many paces to the northward', and so Túrin had to climb down to the river-bed and then up the cliff again to get beneath the Dragon's belly.
In the final version (p. 235) Túrin and Hunthor wre omly part way up the further side when Túrin said that they wre wasting their strength in climbing up now, before they knew where Glaurung would cross; 'they halted therefore and waited'. It is not said that they descended from where they were when they ceased to climb, and the passage concerning Túrin's dream 'in which all his will was given to clinging' reappears from the draft text. But in the revised story there was no need for them to cling: they could and surely would have descended to the bottom and waited there. In fact, this is what they did: it is said in the final text (Unfinished Tales, p. 134) that they were not standing in Glaurung's path and that Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him'. It seems then that the final story carries an unneeded trait from the previous draft. To give it coherence I have emended (p. 236) 'since they were not standing right in Glaurung's path', and 'clambered along the water-edge' to 'clambered along the cliff'.

Can we consider these problematik lines as a slips of the pen? I strongly doubt this. Even the new sketch map provided in CoH does inspite of what Christopher Tolkien discusses above the track turning west before it reach finally the Teiglin. And the problem with the climbing up and down I see not why we have to change it. And why this is the way to do it. If we I would be asked to clearify the passage I would be inclinde to add a line from the draft where Túrin climbed first down when Glaurung moved.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aaront596]

this might be off topic but what about the wanderings of hurin i added it to my chilldren of hurin and i think it made it better.

[Findegil]

The Wanderings of Húrin are not offtopic. But we followed all versions compiled by JRR Tolkien and used The Wanderings of Húrin as the first part of the next Chapter Of the Ruin of Doriath. So the only divernce to your Idea is that it is seperated by a chapter break.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aaront596]

Originally Posted by Findegil

And the problem with the climbing up and down I see not why we have to change it. And why this is the way to do it. If we I would be asked to clearify the passage I would be inclinde to add a line from the draft where Túrin climbed first down when Glaurung moved.

Respectfully
Findegil

I agree, I think if any change should have been made it should have be to add that they climbed down and then back up; not to just take out that part and then change other sentences to go along with that idea. Christopher says himself "In fact that is what they did" concerning them climbing back down and then back up, so I think changes should be made to keep this element of the story, not to remove it.

[emrys]

Originally Posted by Aaront596

I agree, I think if any change should have been made it should have be to add that they climbed down and then back up; not to just take out that part and then change other sentences to go along with that idea. Christopher says himself "In fact that is what they did" concerning them climbing back down and then back up, so I think changes should be made to keep this element of the story, not to remove it.

Well I agree with both of you, there is no need to alter the original Tolkien text since the action of "climbing back down" seem to me quite implicit...

I think the best solution can be reached with a footnote

- Emrys -

[Findegil]

For what would we need a footnote here? But any way, we will not open the floodgate of footnotes; at least not for this. Our aime is not to make each and every obscure sentence of Tolkien clear to any reader. If an action can only be glimpsed implicit by thinking about a passage that is original JRR Tolkien that is totaly okay. Only if we would creat such a obscurity by our editing we would have to clear it up. And we wouldn't do that by a footnote!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aaront596]

I think a footnote is exactly not what this project is about. I think the text should be changed to show Turin climbing down and then back up since that is what he did. When I get a chance I’ll look at the texts and make a suggestion of how it should read, that is if there is text by Tolkien describing it. If there isn't text describing it then maybe something else (perhaps just leaving it alone) would be better, but a foot note would basically be the exact same thing Christopher did and thus would be pointless.

Plus the goal of this project from my understanding is to eliminate footnotes by incorporating them as well as all other sources that can be inserted without altering the text too much, or at all, with our own words or altering to our knowledge Tolkien’s latest and or final plans and decisions for his histories of middle earth.

[Aiwendil]

Plus the goal of this project from my understanding is to eliminate footnotes by incorporating them as well as all other sources that can be inserted without altering the text too much, or at all, with our own words or altering to our knowledge Tolkien’s latest and or final plans and decisions for his histories of middle earth.

This is more or less the problem I have always had with footnotes in this project, though I can see how they might be justifiable in principle.

Anyway, in this instance, I agree that a footnote is not the way to go.

It's not entirely clear to me what the best course is in this passage. If I understand Christopher's discussion correctly, the final text by JRRT seems to contain a contradiction: on the one hand, they stop climbing up before they reach the top (suggesting they would go back down) and later they are said to clamber along the water's edge to reach the spot where Glaurung crosses. On the other hand, Turin still has a dream 'in which all his strength is given to clinging'.

If we must choose one or the other alternative, I suppose we must go with the story that they climb down and then go along the water's edge. That leaves two questions: first, whether we must delete the dream; second, whether it is necessary to add something to the text to indicate that they climbed down.

I'm inclined to answer the second question in the negative. Their climbing down can be seen as implicit in the statement that they stopped halfway up. In any case, Tolkien seems not to have felt anything more necessary. As for the dream, I suppose it should probably go. One could suppose that Turin climbed back down and still then had a dream in which he was clinging to the cliff - but I am inclined to agree with Christopher here that this was an artifact of the previous version.

So my suggestion is to delete the dream but otherwise retain JRRT's final version of the text. And sorry for my accustomed long-windedness.

[Aaront596]

Originally Posted by Findegil

If we I would be asked to clearify the passage I would be inclinde to add a line from the draft where Túrin climbed first down when Glaurung moved.

Respectfully
Findegil

Do we have access to this draft?