The Hobbit - Chapter 04 - Over Hill and Under Hill

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is an interesting question. If Orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then (as others have suggested elsewhere) it seems reasonable to suppose that they are immortal. On the other hand, there is a way in which immortality simply doesn't seem to fit with their portrayal. But I imagine that Glamdring and Orcrist were quite famous among goblins; it doesn't seem any stranger that the Great Goblin would recognize them than that Legolas or Aragorn would recognize a Balrog.

Perhaps....

Perhaps not.

Actually, it's jumping ahead to a later chapter, but a tidbit of information relating to Bolg is handy here. He's the only ork for whom a lifespan is suggested.

We know that he had do have been born during or before 2799- the year his father Azog was slain in the Battle of Nanduhirion. If we assume that Orks, being the evil creatures they are, would have killed him- or at least thwarted his chances of succeeding Azog, then we can probably add twenty years, if not more, to his age. Let's give him a birth year of 2780.

Bolg dies in 2941, the year in which The Hobbit takes place. This gives us a definite lifestpan of 142 years, and- as I said- at least a generation's worth of time to be relatively mature. Factoring into account the fact that Bolg seems to have not yet been in his old age, but rather in his prime, a lifespan of over 200 years seems perfectly reasonable for an Ork.

I'll leave any further observations about the chapter till another day (or night), and I'll leave the implications of the Orkish lifespan for the other brains here to ponder.

[Raynor]

Another interesting point to discuss would be the stone giants: if they really exist (and most of the party members reffer to them seriously, Gandalf intents to bring one along to shut the orc gate, etc) why are they so elusive everywhere else? Are they ents? Where they present at Caradhras when the fellowship was stopped in its way?

[mormegil]

Can you reconcile the goblins with the orcs as we see them later in LotR?

I have difficulty with this. I can not for the life of me imagine Ugluk, Shagrat or Gorbag signing to each other or their captives. I can imagine them torturing them but not singing. There just seems to be a difference between the manner in which most races are portrayed. Tolkien does a good job at explaining that they are nasty creatures but they seem more like creatures we would see on the movie Gremlins than a serious evil, twisted creature.

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps the "goblins" in the Hobbit are a smaller form of mountain-orc. There is precedent for racial variety among orcs in the LotR canon. It is also likely that they have not been under the direct thumb of Sauron for some time, and those they capture are likely to have traditions of song. Since Melkor modeled the orcs after the elves, (there is speculation that he actually twisted the Avari into orcs) it is not unreasonable to suppose them capable of twisting the joyful songs of the Children of Iluvatar and Aule into their own tunes. Plus, the orcs of Moria had drums. Considering how rarely anyone ventured into the caves, it is unlikely they built the drums solely for the purpose of scaring the socks off random passersby...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This chapter also again brings up the questions
of anachronisms and inconsistencies with LOTR.
For example, should JRRT have removed/changed the
fairy tale-ish picture of stone giants and Thorin's allusion to
football (soccer).

But we musn't discuss this too much, preciouss.
Yess, 'praps the next chapter is poor Smeagol's
favorite, except when Thief Baggins cheats in it.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by morm

I have difficulty with this. I can not for the life of me imagine Ugluk, Shagrat or Gorbag signing to each other or their captives. I can imagine them torturing them but not singing.

It's very appropriate for the Hobbit's style that the goblins sing, and while I have hard time imagining Shagrat and Gorbag sitting around a campfire and singing, I'm not sure whether it would be too weird to hear orcs sing in LotR or not. After all, the goblins' singing was described to be croaking and a big part of the lyrics here is ghastly sound effects and laughing. I'd imagine their songs were hardly anything like organized a cappella performances but rather just, well, croaking when they got excited.

There's this painting by John Howe, and although it's a portrait of Gollum, I've always pictured the goblins to look like that. They're vile (keeping slaves, making torturing devices) and sneaky (sprinters with soft shoes ), but not like PJ's Uruk-hai, although the description of the Great Goblin sounded a bit like that.

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Plus, the orcs of Moria had drums. Considering how rarely anyone ventured into the caves, it is unlikely they built the drums solely for the purpose of scaring the socks off random passersby...

The drums didn't necessarily serve any musical purpose in the goblin society. They used to be handy tools for communicating since their sound could be heard over great distances. I'd believe that in labyrinthic caves drumming would have been an ideal way to send messages without too much trouble. Besides, since the message "language" was probably different among different tribes and cultures, unwanted people (spies, whom the goblins seemed to be afraid of) couldn't have interpreted the messages.

Originally Posted by TH, Over Hill and Under Hill

Far, far away in the West, where things were blue and faint, Bilbo knew there lay his own country of safe and comfortable things, and his little hobbit-hole.
...
The summer is getting on down below.

I just started thinking, since there were no TVs, cameras or such in Middle-earth, Bilbo hadn't ever seen what it is like to watch the lands so far up above. That must have been quite an experience for him. Probably a good way to open his eyes to see that there's so much outside the borders of the Shire, too. What is it like to be so isolated from other people than your companions and be so far away from home that even the seasons can't reach you? Quite daunting for poor Bilbo, I guess.

[JennyHallu]

The drums didn't necessarily serve any musical purpose in the goblin society. They used to be handy tools for communicating since their sound could be heard over great distances. I'd believe that in labyrinthic caves drumming would have been an ideal way to send messages without too much trouble. Besides, since the message "language" was probably different among different tribes and cultures, unwanted people (spies, whom the goblins seemed to be afraid of) couldn't have interpreted the messages.

Yes, but Tolkien specifically states the orcs had no language of their own, but twisted that of others to their own ends. Developing a drum-message system is very like developing an original language, but we don't have any evidence of drum-messages in any other Tolkien culture. More likely the drums were used militarily to give very simple messages, and, i think, for dark parodies of lighter Middle-Earth music.