The blood of Faramir but not Boromir?

[Mlo]

Ok, this has been bothering me for a while. This is what Gandalf says to Pippin about Denethor.

He is not like other men of his time, Pippin. And whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true through him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet not did in Boromir whom he loved best.

Now how is that possible? How can the blood of Westernesse run through Faramir and not Boromir? It's impossible! It just doesn't make sense... Or does it?

[Faramir Fan]

My guess is that it was Tolkien's way of explaining the gene pool.

[lindil]

yep.

and welcome to the downs Faramir Fan.

Enjoy your visits and post often [and well [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

[Faramir Fan]

Thank you lindil, still getting my feet wet, but starting to get used to the water...

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I doubt Tolkien was talking about bloodlines, but rather of traits that the Men of Westernesse shared. I'm not sure what those were, but I would suspect insight would be one of them. In other words, he wasn't implying that Boromir was not Denethor's son, but that Boromir did not take after his father the way Faramir did. This is certainly possible given the way genes work.

For example, if the "traits of the Men of Westernesse" were inherited as a simple autosomal dominant (W), [which they probably weren't, but I'm simplifying] anyone with (WW) or (Ww) genes would be like Denethor, whereas those without a copy of the dominant gene (ww) wouldn't. If Finduilas, Denethor's wife, was (ww) and Denethor was (Ww), their offspring would all be either (Ww) or (ww). Faramir was the (Ww), insightful son, whereas Boromir was the (ww) son.

-Lily

[ April 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[Carlas]

Oh dear, that was confusing, I never have liked 'W's [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] I love 'V's though. Anyways back to topic:

I must admit that I agree with Lily Bracegirdle! I think it was more about their traits than blood lines, though it probably took apart. I always found the two very different(Faramir and Boromir), so different that they didn't seem like brothers. But then when I thought of my sister and me, I found that we were very much different. Though, I am very much like my older brother, and she is exactly like my little brother, and vice versa. So perhaps Faramir is more like Denethor(as Lily has mentionned) and Boromir much like his mother, though they don't have to take after anyone at all.

[Salocin]

Westernesse traits (at least ones like insight) would probably be recesive. Others like strength and long life would probably have been more complex (like skin color or hight).

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I always thought it was even less genetic, just things like knowledge and liking learning, which have come out in Faramir but not Boromir by chance.

I love Faramir in the book, but the film wrecked it.

[Legolas]

Those things would come out by inheritance of traits that lead to the development of characteristics that differed between Faramir and Boromir.

It is 'by chance' that Faramir inherited these traits, but not entirely chance that they developed into the characteristics. Psychological studies have shown that behavior (personality) is at the maximum/minimum 70%/30% / 30%/70% heredity/environment. Boromir and Faramir were obviously in almost identical environments, so it was mostly the hereditary factors that distinguished the two.

[ April 24, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Sorry abouy the W's, Carlas. I'm glad they didn't put you off reading the post. ^_^

Salocin, I completely agree that the tendency toward "Westernesse traits" is probably controlled by multiple genes, many of which wouldn't be dominant. I was just trying to make as simple an example as possible.

Lyra and Legolas, you both make interesting points. Some things (liking to read, for example) do seem too vague or complex to be controlled by single genes in an "on/off" sort of way. There obviously is no specific "like to read" gene, but there may be genes that interact to create a person who has a tendency to like reading. Like Legolas, I believe that nature and nurture both play roles in how people turn out.

Another point: Faramir and Boromir may not have really grown up in the same environment. Yes, they both grew up in Minas Tirith, but Boromir had his mother for longer and a loving father, whereas Faramir didn't. Plus, Boromir's love of combat may have prompted him to hang out with the Guard as a boy, whereas Faramir may have spent his days reading books with Gandalf. And don't forget that Faramir had a "bossy" big brother, while Boromir had a retiring little brother. For whatever reason, they turned out differently, which turned out to be a good thing for the Quest to destroy the Ring.

Cheers!

-Lily

[Legolas]

Though the environments they chose to be a part of (for instance, you picture Boromir hanging out with the guards) were by choice, and part of the overall environment provided Gondor's royal house to which each son had access to.

[Yavanna Kementari]

I would like to shine a different light on this. If I may. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I think what Gandalf was saying about 'blood' wasn't actually about genetics, but about a sort of spirit.

Denethor and Faramir had a different sort of spirit more like the men of Westerness (the good ones of course). Boromir was tempted by the ring. Where as Denethor and Faramir hated what it had done in the past so badly that they wouldn't have taken it if they saw it laying in the road.

Tough Boromir was a good man his spirit was easily swayed were as the spirit of Westerness (the faithful anyway) was not so easily swayed. When Sauron tried to corrupt them and evil kings reigned they were true to the Elves and Valar.

So IMHO I think that may be what the Professor is saying. Just a notion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~(~<~> Yavanna
p.s. I really liked Faramir in the books as well, but sadly it didn't set him apart from Boromir which was Tolkien's clear intent: to make him different. I like Boromir too, in a different way. They are like the Sun and Moon, very different but still function as a light. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ April 24, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

[Burzdol]

Maybe, they had two different mothers. I read in old stories, that powerful kings had so many beautiful women for them to....you know. Maybe that was the case. I don't think so, but just a guess.

[Legolas]

Yavanna

Spirit is personality, isn't it? You said the exact same thing we've been saying.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

But Denethor did want the Ring and was furious with Faramir for not bringing it to him. Okay, he may have fooled himself into believing he could hold it unused, (Gandalf knew better!) but he most definitely did want it, and he should have known better. But then so should Saruman.

Boromir did try to take the Ring but he also repented almost immediately, and managed to free himself from its hold. Faramir refused the Ring but then he didn't have it working on him for three or four months, undermining his resistance.

Boromir was heir to a land under threat, a land that needed a great captain not a philosopher king for its leader, (at least in Denethor's opinion). Undoubtedly he was strongly encouraged to concentrate on arms and the arts of war and any tendencies he may have had towards scholarship equally firmly discouraged. Faramir on the other hand, as the younger son, was freer to follow his own inclinations.

Boromir's apparent onesidedness was the result of nurture, not nature.

[Legolas]

It can't be that black and white. If the traits weren't there for Boromir to become the warrior that he was, he would've been pushed aside. Also, he wouldn't start training from age 1. He would've had plenty of time to develop before any type of intense 'training' started.

Gandalf obviously knew that Boromir's one-sidedness was due, at least in part, to his nature. If the 'blood' that flows through Faramir was the same as his father's as the quote says, then Denethor was not 'one-sided' like Boromir. Denethor would've gone through the same training, yet he still exhibited the presence of that blood inside of him.

[ April 25, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

To whoever suggested Boromir and Faramir had different mothers, they didn't. She was (hold on) Finduilas of Dol Amroth (hence B and F have a little Elvish blood in them). I must admit though, when I heard Boromir's broad(ish) Yorkshire accent and Faramir's Home Counties voice I had my suspicions!

I always wondered how Denethor had the blood of Numenor, when he obviously wanted the ring, etc. My guess is that it was in part his wish to be more like Boromir and also of course the Palantir. Does anyone concur/differ?

Faramir refused the Ring but then he didn't have it working on him for three or four months, undermining his resistance.

But Boromir wanted it from day One. And Gollum wanted it as soon as he saw it, and Isildur straight away too. the attraction might increase over time but the one? two? days Faramir spent with Frodo and Sam would certainly be enough for the ring to work it's will. the temptation had to be there from the start.

[ April 25, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

Well, Faramir and Denethor are definitely alike. But in the Appendices it does say that Denethor and Boromir were alike in looks and pride, while Faramir was liken to Denethor in insight (ability to read the hearts of men) and looks. And, while we don't know much of Finduilas, we do know that the line of the Princes of Dol Amroth were of Numenorean and Elvish descent. So she could have been a (Ww) for all we know, and though the chart would show that the kids would all be (Ww), and since there's always the possibility of an oddity, it could have happened, as long as the gene is still there.

I always wondered how Denethor had the blood of Numenor, when he obviously wanted the ring, etc.

Well, the Stewards do descend of Elendil, not in direct descent (meaning father-father), but one of the Stewards definitely descend of Elendil and Anarion through a female. Which might explain Boromir's confusion at why the Stewards weren't kings. It would also explain that Gondorian custom differed slightly from Numenorean custom. Oh yeah, and Isildur was Numenorean (and one of the faithful) and he took the Ring. Boromir probably inherited the traits of his ancestors from the other Houses (meaning from the 3 Main Houses, one of the lesser ones).

Faramir refused the Ring but then he didn't have it working on him for three or four months, undermining his resistance.

I agree with Lyra Greenleaf on this. Boromir wanted it from the start. And, to add, Boromir was with the rest of the company of the Fellowship, which proves a bit of an odd situation if he were to take the Ring. Meanwhile, when Frodo and Sam are in Henneth-Annun with Faramir, the younger brother has about two hundred men at his disposal, and he had them cornered after the meal. Of course, he purposely intimidated/made fun of them by standing up and saying "Hah!...etc, etc," but he still rejected the Ring. If not in oath, then by nature (recall how he says: "Even if I were one to desire such a thing...").

[Morwen Tindomerel]

'Boromir wanted the Ring from the start.' Exactly how do you figure that? Certainly he spoke for using it at the Council of Elrond, but that doesn't mean he wanted it for himself, (then). In fact he is clearly suggesting that 'the Wise' or the 'Free Lords of the Free' which presumably included his father, use the Ring as a committee. This of course was impossible but he didn't know that.

There is in fact every reason to believe Book Boromir initially accepted the decision of the Council and intended to do everything in his power to further it.

Sam, an acute observer, tells Faramir Boromir himself didn't realize he wanted the Ring until just before or during the interlude in Lorien, (Galadriel's psychological meddling may have backfired here) after he'd been exposed to the Ring's influence for months.

Denethor fell prey to the Ring's temptation without ever seeing or touching it, (as did Saruman). Faramir rejected it but was not subjected to months of its influence as Boromir was. Boromir fell but repented and broke the Ring's hold upon his mind - 'few have won such a victory'.

For that matter Isildur too had repented of his decision to keep the Ring and meant to give it up to 'the Wise', which of course is why it 'betrayed him to his death', (see 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields in UT).

Certain individuals, regardless of species or ancestry, have the character to resist the Ring's lure. But *no* race or lineage is automatically immune, not even the angelic Maiar as Saruman proves.

As for Boromir's proclivities, I never meant to suggest he didn't have a natural flair and interest for military matters, and he is unquestionably by nature a Man of action. However such traits do *not* preclude an interest in science, philosophy or literature, (Alexander the Great for example had a lively interest in such things and if he wasn't a Man of action nobody is!)

Training in arms began quite young in medieval times, seven or eight. Nor would Denethor have waited so long to encourage an interest in military matters in his heir, and discourage any other interests.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Yavanna, sorry if I was unclear. I didn't mean that Gandalf was talking about genetics himself, but that (as you said) he was recognizing the traits of Numenor in Faramir. I agree with Morwen, though, that Denethor *did* want the Ring for himself, as having Numenorean blood didn't protect against desire for the Ring.

Morwen, I don't feel that we can tell how much of Boromir's personality came from nature vs. nurture. Both interacted to produce him and we can't tell which was which unless we clone him and raise the clone in Rivendell or something for comparison.

Lyra and Morchaint, thanks for reminding us about Finduilas's heritage. If she were a (Ww) as well as Denethor, their offspring would have had a 3/4 chance of being the "insightful," Faramir-type (WW, Ww, wW) and a 1/4 chance of being Boromir (ww). Of course, if Faramir were (WW), then all of his offspring with Eowyn would be "insightful," but I'm falling prey to my own oversimplified model, so I'll stop there.

-Lily

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Morwen, I don't feel that we can tell how much of Boromir's personality came from nature vs. nurture. Both interacted to produce him and we can't tell which was which unless we clone him and raise the clone in Rivendell or something for comparison."

Now there's an AU for you! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

All I'm saying is it's a mistake to assume Boromir was 'merely' a warrior, just as it was a mistake to assume Faramir was just a scholar.

[Salocin]

Boromir wanted it from the start. And, to add, Boromir was with the rest of the company of the Fellowship, which proves a bit of an odd situation if he were to take the Ring. Meanwhile, when Frodo and Sam are in Henneth-Annun with Faramir, the younger brother has about two hundred men at his disposal, and he had them cornered after the meal. Of course, he purposely intimidated/made fun of them by standing up and saying "Hah!...etc, etc," but he still rejected the Ring. If not in oath, then by nature (recall how he says: "Even if I were one to desire such a thing...").

(My emphasis)

Very good point, though I would say that Boromir never consiously wanted the Ring for him self. He honestly believed he could take it to his father without sucoming to it.

I don't understand why you guys are saying Isildur "claimed" the ring. Well I guess he did, but not in the same way and Gollum did, and Boromir, Saruman, and Denthor wanted to, and Faramir would have had to had he wanted it. It came to him and, as far as I know, there was no reason why he would have known not to take it. The seen in the movie where Elrond takes him to Mount Doom and he consiously claims it in spite of the warnings certainly did not happen. Isidur's keeping the ring was no worse than Bilbo's, in fact Bilbo's was worse since he knew it was Gollums and took it anyways.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Actually Elrond says at the council that both he and Cirdan tried to talk Isildur out of keeping the Ring but he refused to listen. However in fairness to Isildur he doesn't seem to have intended to use it, just keep it as a trophy and heirloom - impossible of course but he fooled himself into believing that it was.

As for Bilbo - well the ethics of the situation are a bit cloudy but there's no question Gollum's intentions were murderous, and Bilbo took the only possible course to get himself out of the caverns alive.

[Legolas]

Training in arms began quite young in medieval times, seven or eight. Nor would Denethor have waited so long to encourage an interest in military matters in his heir, and discourage any other interests.

You can't base such ideas about Tolkien on your presumptions from experiences in this world and expect them to hold up as arguments. What Tolkien writings is that statement based on? What makes you think Faramir would then also undergo similar training at some point? Had Boromir not excelled in such training, he wouldn't be forced to continue, would he? That is neither here nor there, though.

Whether or not that statement holds true, you ignore the fact that Denethor would've went through the same presumed training.

Denethor showed the blood of the W. men while Boromir did not.

[ April 26, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I always seem to end up at loggerheads with you, Legolas.

Given that Minas Tirith is capital of a nation at war it is safe to assume that its male population would be trained in arms from an early age. Naturally both Faramir and Denethor would have recieved the same training, though probably shown less aptitude than Boromir.

We know that Denethor deeply resented the respect and affection given by his father and his people to the great captain Thorongil, (Aragorn in disguise) who he was apparently unable to rival as a warrior or military leader. IMO it was this percieved failure that led him to encourage his elder son to become the great captain he had been unable to be - at the price of other interests. Granted this is speculation, but solidly based on Canonical evidence.

I would like to point out that Boromir is not entirely without intellectual attainments. His contributions to the Council of Elrond make it clear he knows his history.

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Salocin]

Actually Elrond says at the council that both he and Cirdan tried to talk Isildur out of keeping the Ring but he refused to listen

Hmmm... I don't remember that. I really should look it up, but I can't find my copy of FoTR. O the frustration [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] (closest smilely to frustration [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Lily Bracegirdle]

"Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire ... where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.

"'This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother,' he said; and therefore whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it."

[Morwen Tindomerel]

In all fairness to Isildur how rational can you expect any Man to be after a daylong battle which has cost him his father, and kid brother and who knows how many friends and relatives? And he did think the better of it, according to 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields'.

[Salocin]

Wasn't Anarion the older brother? And anyways, he died a year earlier in the seige of Barad-Dur. A rock hit him in the head. Pretty lousy way to die if you ask me. Especially considering what we know of his temperment. He could have done some real good in the phisical fight with Sauron.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Anarion was definitely the younger brother, but I think you're right about him dying in an earlier battle. What do you know about Anarion's temperment that I don't? I can't recall anything off the top of my head.

[Salocin]

Your right, Isuldur is the older one, I just look it up.

Wasn't Anarion the one that stole the fruit from the white tree just before Sauron killed it? Wait, no I just look that up to and it was Isuldur. Woops, sorry. I guess we don't know that much about Anarion.