'Which is as Fate to all Things Else’

[HerenIstarion]

The Downfall of Numenor

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

I believe that the choice wasn't really a matter of eating, but of obedience. God had said not to eat. As far as consequences, I'm going to quote the Bible. (hope that doesn't land me in hot water.)

Quote:
Genesis 2:17
But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

Thank you for quoting from the second creation story, Gurthang! Which of course, you had to, as the story of man's disobedience isn't in the first version.

This is the crux of HI's poll, isn't it? What does "die" mean to a creature who has been created supposedly immortal? Where is choice if the consequence is not understood? Would they die immediately, ie, cease physiological functioning? Would they die sometime in the future? Given its traditional association with Adam and Even then realising they were naked, why, it looks like this is the first pun on die as sexual intercourse.

Informed consent is such a delicate matter.

[davem]

In the BBC documentary 'Tolkien in Oxford' there's a moment where Tolkien discusses the meaning of death (just dug this up on another website)

'When it comes down to any large story, that interests people and holds their interest for any considerable length of time, they're all human stories and are only about one thing, aren't they? Death! (pauses for effect) the ineventability of death. There was a quotation from Simonne de Beauvoir in the paper the other day - about the death in 1939 of a musical composer whom I am very fond of; Carl Maria Weber. The biographer quoted this by Simonne Beauvoir; I'll read it if I may: "There is no such thing as a natural death. Nothing that happens to Man is natural, since his presence calls the whole world into question. All men must die; but for each man, his death is an accident, and and even if he knows it, an unjustifiable violation". Now, you may agree with those words or not: but they are the keyspring of The Lord of the Rings'.

Here, he seems to be going against the idea that Death is a 'Gift'. Here he says (in agreement with de Beuvoir) that Death is an 'accident & an unjustifiable violation.' Of course, it could be argued that this was his personal feeling & that things were different in LotR - yet he says that those words are the keyspring of LotR. Does this mean that, while the idea of Death being a gift runs through the Legendarium, Tolkien himself didn't believe it?

He seems to be denying that Men's freedom begins after death (the 'accident', the 'unjustifiable violation'). The Elves may call Death the Gift of Eru to Men, but Men don't see it that way - & neither, it seems, did Tolkien. More significantly, he says these words are the 'keyspring' to LotR - which means what? That LotR is concerned with life (& I suppose with death) in this world, & not with events post mortem. So, I would say, if freedom for Men is to have any meaning or relevance in the Legendarium, it must be freedom in this world, before the 'unjustifiable violation'.

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps he meant that death always appears as an accident and a violation to mankind. Christian theology preaches death is a gift, but that is one of, if not the, most difficult concepts for man to accept.

Death is the ultimate frontier and thus the ultimate terror. We live our lives in a frenzy of activity knowing it is coming. Perhaps when Tolkien referred to the accident and violation of death being the "keystone" of LotR he meant that fear and loathing of death is why the story happened. If Man realized death was intended by Iluvatar as a gift, would they have strove so hard to keep it away?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Christian theology preaches death is a gift, but that is one of, if not the, most difficult concepts for man to accept. (JennyHallu)

Actually, at first death was a curse. It only became a gift after Jesus's sacrifice gave humanity full access to God. As Paul said:

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Phil 1.21

Although yes, it's very difficult to accept. Only the knowledge of the Resurrection--that someone actually broke the curse of death--makes it all easier to take. If the Resurrection is a lie, we Christians look pretty pathetic.

My long post will come later. I promise. I'm halfway through HoME V now.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I. Original Conception

[Rúmil: ][Eru] devised that Men should have a free virtue whereby within the limits of the powers and substances and chances of the world they might fashion and design their life beyond even the original Music of the Ainur that is as fate to all things else.

HoME I, The Music of the Ainur--emphasis mine

Remember that by this time, death for Men was nothing special.

How come, when Death as a gift to Men was introduced, the wording was not much changed?

Therefore [Eru] willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

TS Ainulindalë--emphasis mine

This argues much for the special freedom of action for Men in Arda. I think we find undertones of this in the Sketch of the Mythology:

If Turgon does Ylmir's will [to prepare for battle against Morgoth] Tuor is to abide a while in Gondolin and then go back to Hithlum with a force of Gnomes and draw Men once more into alliance with the Elves, for 'without Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Orcs and Balrogs'.

HoME IV, The Earliest 'Silmarillion' 16--emphasis mine

The importance of the aid of Men survives into the Quenta:

[Ulmo: ]Forget the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Húrin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.

HoME IV, The Quenta 16 (QII)--emphasis mine

All these attention Ulmo has for Men became in the later stages of the mythology focused on one Man:

II. Tuor

This is Ulmo's speech to Tuor in the most recent form available:

[Ulmo: ]But behold! in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach . . . Yet Doom is strong . . . And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.

UT I 1--emphases mine

There is an rift in the armour of Fate. The Music of the Ainur is as fate to all things else, except Men. Hmmm . . .

[Ulmo: I]t is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.

ibid--emphasis mine

Now, this is all so very interesting, the concept that somehow, Men can bring hope from beyond the world into it.

( . . . to be continued, I still have to scour Athrabeth)

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I admit that english isn't my first language, but how do you view the quote I provided as strengthening your case? Before I bring other arguments, do I understand correctly that you reject the idea that Men have free will?

I'm actually borderline on that topic. I can definitely see points in either direction, but I am probably leaning towards Men not having Free Will, as in not independant from Eru's plan. This probably comes from my own belief, though, that God has a plan and everything is set within that plan. Hence, our every action is already dictated and is 'fate'.

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

[Ulmo: ]But behold! in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach . . . Yet Doom is strong . . . And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.

UT I 1--emphases mine

There is an rift in the armour of Fate. The Music of the Ainur is as fate to all things else, except Men. Hmmm . . .

This, to me at least, strengthens my theory. It says there is a rift in the armour of Fate, a gap if you will in the Music that is as fate to all but Men. So there are gaps in the Music the Ainur played, and the roles of Men is to fill in those gaps. And the filling in of these gaps will bring out a whole product (Music plus gaps filled by Men) that is the whole plan of Eru.

There are some other things I like that I am hearing, and would like to respond to, but I should be getting some sleep.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Here, he seems to be going against the idea that Death is a 'Gift'. Here he says (in agreement with de Beuvoir) that Death is an 'accident & an unjustifiable violation.' Of course, it could be argued that this was his personal feeling & that things were different in LotR - yet he says that those words are the keyspring of LotR. Does this mean that, while the idea of Death being a gift runs through the Legendarium, Tolkien himself didn't believe it?

Yet he often reffers to our world as 'fallen' or 'corrupt' - which would mean that in this kind of world Melkor's marring of the gift is prevalent ("But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope "). Aragorn, who embraces this gift as he 'should', has the most beautiful ending:

Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.