Culinary traditions in Middle Earth

[Nogrod]

Thanks to HerenIstarion, I got a grip of gastronomic threads that have been pursued at BD. Unfortunately, from my point of view, only the first one (in 2002), even took up some ideas of sharing recipies’. And none of the threads shared a discussion of what could be the culinary traditions of the Middle Earth.

So I think, there would be a place for this kind of thread also, and again.

Could we have a discussion, concerning the various culinary traditions of the Middle Earth, and maybe share some ideas of the recipies’? I myself have invented / gathered some 50+ recipies’ for my own “Middle Earth Cookbook” (to be just privatively “published” to my daughters' as they run away to live on their own), with some introductions. I would be quite ready to “share and enjoy” (remember D. Adams?) them, to give and to gain from ideas’ we’ll share, for the common good. Maybe we could really publish something, as a “BD Cookbook” one day?

As an introduction, I would like to make the following generalizations.

It’s easy to pinpoint two areas’ of gastronomic culture in the Middle Earth.

Firstly the Hobbitton & the Breeland are easily seen as a kind of British Isles, Northern France, Benelux, Northern Germany & Scandinavia -stuff. This is something that Tolkien himself makes quite clear.

Secondly, it would be easy to assume Minas Tirith (& Osgiliath etc.) to have some kind of Mediterranean cuisine, including North African tradition. And if we think of the fourth age, surely at least Minas Tirith has become a place hip enough to breed some cross-kitchen?

But the rest is more challenging.

The beornings’ would have their vegan palate with a northern twist?

How about the “Lake people”, from Esgaroth, or from near the Lone Mountain? The cuisine of eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, Czech republic, Hungary)?

And how about the rohirrim? They sure rode down from the north – and would therefore share some basic traditions with the northern people, but perhaps their new surroundings & involvements, would have made the tradition a new one? Nothing we have in this actual world of ours, an assemblage of northern & southern (European) cuisine?

Pelargir? Maybe Caribbean flavours would come from here (the title “The Pirates’ of the Caribbean” really has roots up to 17th. Century). Nice way of threading popular ideas and Tolkien together?

How about southern Gondor (Dol Amroth etc.)? As odd as it sounds, I would suggest, it would be the place of Indian flavours, or a blend of India & Africa, as we have at the kichen of eastern Africa. This just because there is no other natural place for Indian cuisine, and I just couldn’t live without it.

Then there would be the recipies’ of the Haradrim, that would come from sub-Saharan Africa.

The easterlings’ could easily be seen as far-eastern people (Indonesia, Philippines’, China, Japan etc.), but I’m not sure, whether this interpretation is any good at all. F.ex. their kitchen relies heavily on seafood, but where, in the Middle Earth could they live by the sea? The lake Rhûn might be the closest substitute? Here we see Tolkien making a borderline. Where do easterling have their abodes’ in the first place?

But. Comments? Ideas?

I truly acknowledge, that these basic ideas have been the most common and unreflective, empowering the stereotypes we deem to have in general. But that’s also the other side of the coin: by sticking to the “generalities”, one can make himself understood... and with the case of food, get some real experiences of real life luxury!

I’ll put forwards some of my recipies’ in a couple of days’ of time. I’ll start from the “obvious” ones’ (I’ve even dared to construct the “Herbs and stewed Rabbit” –recipe, as Sam would have done it at the Shire) . The way I have been generating these recipies’, have been both to think of the world of Tolkien, and to make good food with reachable ingredients. I have not cared to shy with borrowing classics’, but I have tried also to just make what comes to my mind...

I surely would welcome your thoughts and recipies’! But perhaps not those which begin with phrases like “First you should take two Balrogs”...

So what do you think about these general culinary outlines’, I’ve tried to open? I would be happy to hear some criticism. Not to talk of seeing some general ideas about the culinary traditions’ in Middle Earth.

[Nogrod]

This first is an easy one. One that is overtly deemed junk-food. But after all, eating good sausages' and taters' isn't bad at all, especially, if you serve them with lots of fresh sallad!

Sausages and potatoes from the Bree-land

You will waste your time in trying to find a more “Bree-like” bar-food than this one. The Breelanders are famous sausage-makers and their repertoire includes several kinds of sausages – each one more delicious than the others. In order to catch the original flavour, you should use a couple of different sausages: the better the sausages, the better the portions’. Don’t use sausages where the ingredients-table lists water and flour as the first components! Otherwise the choice of sausages is relative to your taste: you can use chorizo, bratwurst, salami, lamb-sausage, or any local fleshy sausage you come up with. This is a dish where the ingredients really count.

- 2-3 small potatoes / person
- Enough sausages (100-200g. / person), at least two different sorts, cut into bite-sized pieces
- The juice of ½ a lemon (for two or three persons’, with more people and ingredients’, the amount of the lemon-juice should be increased)
- 1 small onion / person (if you are making the dish for several people, you can change every other onion for a red onion or a couple of shallots), cut into rings
- Thyme & oregano, preferably fresh, but dried will do
- Salt and pepper
- Butter & Olive oil
- Tomatosauce (see recipe below)
- French mustard (Dijon or other similar kind of strong, not sweet mustard)

1. Wash the potatoes carefully – do not peel them, if they are not having a dragon-like skin over them! Chop them into boats (1/4 or 1/8 part, depending the size of the taters’). Put the taters’ into a ovenproof pan, and season them with plenty of salt and pepper, thyme, oregano, lemon-juice and olive oil. Stir well, and put them into the oven, pre-heated to 200C (400F).

2. Soften the onion-rings in a casserole, with a light heat (with some butter and olive-oil). Sauteé them, do not brown! Some ten minutes'. Set the onions aside.

3. Heat up the pan. Add oil if needed (propably not). Fry the sausages, in batches, if needs to be.

4. Take the potatoes out of the oven (if the wedges' are small, 20-30 minutes' of overall cooking-time will suffice, if they are larger, you should count some extra time with them). Stir well. Add the onions above the potatoes, then the sausages over the onions'. From the onions and sausages above, will come nice amounts of grease that will juice the potatoes and make them more delicious.

5. Let the portion cook in the oven for 5-10 minutes more– don’t let the sausages burn (put a folio above the set if they are in danger of burning).

6. Serve with tomatosauce (recipe below), good mustard, and strong ale (Bock for example). You could almost think of sitting at the table at the Prancing Pony!

Breeish’ tomato-sauce:

Take one can of tomato-pureé (about 1-2 tablespoons’), pour over some 1 tbs. of olive oil. Add some freshly ground salt, black pepper, thyme, ground coriander, ground cloves and ground ginger (+ ground jeera & some chilli, optional). Stir well, and let stand. This should be done first!

[Nogrod]

This one continues the quite heavy standards of a northern Middle Earth kitchen. I’ll promise to bring forth some lighter recipies in near future. Just made this today, and got an inspiration to share it.
Indeed this one is a kind of a variation from the famous “Kiev chicken”, and the slavic mentality is followed in the side dishes, f.ex. the usage of canned peas, gherkins & smetana (russian sour-cream, quite near creme fraiche). But as the Kiev chicken is pretty hard to make – it requires handcraft skills – this one is relatively easy, even though there is quite a lot of work in it. But that should be fun, even to a beginner (getting everything ready at the same time will require some thinking). Making it twosome is even more fun. The recipe uses dried herbs, but fresh ones are alway preferable, just remember to cut them well and use a little more of them.

Erebor chicken

This recipe comes from Esgaroth. The name of the dish doesn’t in the first instance point to the lonely mountain as such, as it contains a pun of sorts. The famous herb “dragon” is the pivotal point here, for it is used in almost everything that is served with this dish. This is a typical winter-food, using preserved ingredients and having relatively nice amounts of butter & cream in it. And in part just because of the latter, it tastes wonderful.

For the “salad”:
- gherkins (salt preserved cucumbers, particulary russian thing: if you can get the original ones, the better) and canned peas (salt preserved too, but more common than the cucumbers around the world), 1/3 gherkins vs. 2/3 peas. The exact amount should be decided by the number of eaters.
(- radish, as much or little less than gherkin, optional)
- smetana (or any thick sour-cream)
- ground white pepper
- dragon, marjoram, parsley

Side dishes:
- 1-2 potatoes / person
- ½-1 carrots / person
- salt & pepper
- dragon, parsley
- smetana

- 1 medium yellow onion / person
- salt & currypowder

The chicken:
- 2 small breasts of chicken / person
- butter
- salt & pepper
- dragon, parsley
(- fresh rosemary, optional)
- flour & breadcrumbs
- ground paprika
- 1 egg (for 2-3 portions, more as needed)
- about ½ ltr. / 2 cups of oil, for deep-frying

1. About an hour earlier, pound the chicken breasts in between a folio, baking paper or whatever you can find (use a meatpounder, a bottom of a bottle, a casserole, or anything). Just try to make them as thin as you can without breaking them (the most important thing being: Don’t break them!). Fit them as pairs, two against one another. Then season every two of them from the “inside” = rub herbs into one side of every breast, then add seasoning, to the same side, then put thin wedges of butter over one half of each pair. Place the non-butter breast over the other, so that all the seasoning & herbs & butter is left inside this “cake”, outsides being clean. Take cocktailsticks, toothsticks etc. and secure them against each other. Just as starting a needlework and leaving the needles in (some 4-5 sticks / portion should do).

2. Take some flour and pour it to a plate to form a “cover” over the plate. Turn the tied-together chicken breasts over in the flour, a couple of times. Set the chicken aside to dry for a second. Meanwhile dust extra flour off the plate and replace with breadcrumbs, season with pepper and paprika, stir. Break one egg (or more, if needed) and whisk it in another plate. Turn the chickens in the beaten egg first, then carefully roll them in the breadcrumbs, so that they are totally covered. Cover and refrigirate for an hour.

3. After about an hour, begin making the salad. Cut the gherkins in small bits and combine with the peas in a bowl. Let rest a minute or two. If there is a lot of liquid in the bowl after that, discard of it. Pour in about 1 tablespoon of smetana / person over the peas & gherkins and stir. Season and stir again. Put a folio or something over the bowl and put into the fridge.

4. Put enough water to boil for the potatoe-carrot mash. Wash and peel the potatoes and carrots. Cut the carrots in very small bits and add to the water immediately (they need more cooking time than the taters). Season with dragon & parsley, salt & pepper. At this stage, bring the deep-frying oil to heat up in a separate pan. Also turn the oven on, 150C (300F). Then cut the taters a bit rougher. Add the taters after the carrots have boiled a couple of minutes. (If you are having a big dinner party, the boiling of the water might take a while: in that occasion, put the taters into a bowl and cover them with cold water; that way they will stay fresh before cooking).

5. When the oil is hot enough (try with a piece of white bread, it should turn nicely brown in a minute), put the chicken portions in to the oil, 1 or 2 at a time (depending on the size of the vessel: do not “overcrowd” the thing, for the oil will cool down and the frying won’t be good). Boil for several minutes, about 3-5. Watch them carefully not to brown them too much, they should be mild yellow-brown in colour.

6. While the chicken are frying, peal the onions, and cut them into rings. When the chicken have a nice colour, take them from the oil and rest them over a householdpaper or something (to suck the extra oil). Meanwhile pour the onionrings into the oil. Put the chicken in an ovenproof vessel and into the oven. They should be ready in 5-10 minutes. (While chicken should not be eaten raw, an overcooked chicken is dry and tasteless – so be careful with the timing, and check)

7. As the taters are beginning to feel soft, pour out the water – and according to your hurry, cover and let rest, or mash immediately. You should have an eye for the onions too, and stir them time time, and be careful not to burn them. But in any order. Mash the potatoes (do not use a machine, for it will produce “clinical” results: better to have something to bite in a mash). Add smetana and taste fot the seasoning. Pick the onions with a slotted spoon and put them over a paper or towel. Season the onionrings with salt and currypowder.

8. After all is done – and hope someone else has laid the table ready, you should go on serving. The “salad” should be served from its own bowl. You may pour the onionrings over the mashed potatoes/carrots or serve them separately. And last but not least, the chicken portions should be served, straight from the oven, to each plate.

9. Even though north seems to be the ale-country with Tolkien also (and the russian origins of this meal would underline it), feel free to have some cold, dry white wine or fresh ice-cold water with this one.

[Nogrod]

This thread seems to be gaining in sightings, but not in comments or other suggestions. Well. I'll nevertheless push on, and try to translate recipies as the time allows. Let's see how it turns out. But any help, comment, criticism etc. would be of help. And welcome anyway.

Not to mention the discussion of the prinicples...

[eowyntje]

Might I say I love this topic and can't wait to read more of your recipes. I've never really tried to make any middle earth recipes but after reading this topic I can't wait to make some. If I come up with something good I will post it.
There is one recipe I am really interested in. I know its a cliché, but I would really like to find a recipe for good lembas. Any suggestions?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by eowyntje

There is one recipe I am really interested in. I know its a cliché, but I would really like to find a recipe for good lembas. Any suggestions?

I think there's not enough information on what it should taste like so people end up with doing waffles and calling them lembas...

[Alkanoonion]

I always associate hobbit meals with good old fashioned English food; my favorite is as follows…

Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding cook 1-2hrs

Ingredients
Fore rib beef (about 4 kgs/9 lbs), French trimmed, boned and rolled
olive oil
salt
freshly cracked black pepper
For the Yorkshire pudding
3 eggs
115g/4oz flour
275ml/½ pint milk
beef dripping
salt

Method
1. Preheat the oven to its highest setting.
2. Rub the beef with the olive oil, salt and pepper all over.
3. Put a heavy-based roasting tray on the hob and when hot, add the beef.
4. Sear the beef quickly on all sides to colour and crisp the outside.
5. Transfer the beef immediately to the oven and leave the oven on its highest setting (about 240C/460F/Gas 8) for 20 minutes.
6. Reduce the heat to 190C/375F/Gas 5 and roast for half an hour per kilo for rare, adding another ten minutes per kilo for medium rare, 20 minutes per kilo for medium, and 30 minutes per kilo for well done.
7. Remove from the oven and place on a board or tray for resting.
8. Loosely cover with foil and rest the meat for a minimum of 40 minutes before carving, letting the precious juices that have bubbled up to the surface seep back into the flesh. Also, as the meat relaxes it becomes easier to carve.
9. For the Yorkshire pudding, mix together the eggs, flour and a pinch of salt.
10. Add the milk, stirring constantly, until you have a runny batter.
11. Leave this to rest, covered, in the refrigerator for up to 12 hours.
12. Place 1cm/½in of beef dripping in the bottom of each pudding mould, or if you are using a rectangular roasting tray, place 1cm/½in of beef dripping across the bottom.
13. Heat the dripping in the oven (at 240C/460F/Gas 8) for about ten minutes, until it is piping hot.
14. Remove the roasting tray from the oven, pour in the batter, and immediately return to the oven. Bake for 25 minutes, until golden brown and crispy, making sure not to open the oven door for the first 20 minutes.
15. Serve immediately with the carved roast beef

wish it was dinner time yum

[Anguirel]

I stole this Lembas recipe from this very site-alas I don't remember who posted it first. All credit to them.

LEMBAS:

What Tolkien says about Lembas:
-They contain honey
-they are light-colored on the inside and light brown crust
-they are thin and regular-shaped. This implies they were made on some kind of griddle iron. The closest modern equivalent is a Krumkake iron. I used a pizzelle iron.
Some other things we can guess:
-They contain the fruit and maybe the flower-water of the Mallorn tree. I substituted oranges, although kumquats or a hand of Buddha fruit might be better.
-They probably had some kind of finely ground light-coloured nut in them. I used almonds.
-They contained some kind of nourishing flour. I used semolina flour, which is a more primitive flour, and also more nourishing.
-Galadriel probably used some kind of grinder to refine the ingredients. I used a blender.

The recipe:
3 eggs
1 cup honey (preferably wild honey)
1 tablespoon grated orange peel or three kumquats or one large finger of a hand of Buddha.
2 teaspoons orange flower water (optional)
3 oz blanched almonds
1/4 cup melted butter
2-1/4 cups semolina flour
1/2 teaspoon salt Place eggs, honey, orange peel or other fruit, orange flower water, and almonds in blender.
Blend on high for 3 minutes. Add 1 cup of the flour. Blend for 1 minute. Scrape into a bowl and add remaining flour and salt.
Whisk or stir until well blended. Bake lembas on a pizzelle or krumkake iron 15 seconds each or until lightly brown.
You may substitute a waffle iron but add a teaspoon of baking powder. (The texture will not be quite accurate in a waffle iron.)

I haven't yet tried it, but I think you'll agree it sounds mouth-watering, and not too waffly...

[eowyntje]

I love the sound of that lembas recipe, its really based on things tolkien said and not just a wild guess. I can't wait to try it myself.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nogrod, have you any recipes from the Beornings? Anguirel's post of lembas notwithstanding, all foods posted thus far have one failing: meat. Not that that's a real failing, mind you, but... vegetarians like cooking too.

I have a feeling I'd best like Beorning food anyhow... Shire-food is too heavy for me, and Bree-food likely is also, being so close. I can only ever think of Gondor relying heavily on war rations, thanks to a recent read of The Return of the King. Not so much my taste. Seafood has that nasty fishy smell to it (go figure) that turns my tastebuds right off. There goes all of that. The Indian food of Southern Gondor sounds promising... spices and all easiliy available through sea-trade... Any non-meat dishes you know of that they might have served up? Something fruity that the Elves might be fond of?

And I've tried that lembas recipe... I like it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The original intent of this thread was for discussion on food in Middle-earth. We already have a recipe thread here: Arda Recipe Book. Please post your recipes there to make finding them all easier.

Since this topic is more speculative than actual book discussion, I'm moving the thread to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to discuss there.

There is also a thread devoted to lembas recipes here: Lembas

[eowyntje]

I would expect some elves to eat something vegetarian now and then, so that might be a good place to look for recipes without meat. But I would find it less likely for dwarfs or hobbits to be eating vegetarian, unless they couldn't find any meat.

I think the Arda cookbook is a little less serious then this one, containing Mawe's muffins, Yavanna's Yam and orc Stew, where as this topic tries to think of recipes that could actually be made in middle earth (if it existed)

[Thinlómien]

Composing Elvish kitchen sounds a bit too ambitious for me, but if Nogrod or anyone is willing to try, I think it's a great idea.

All I know is that they ate white bread and fruits

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

What, do you suppose, Dwarves of the Misty Mountains ate?

We know that Gollum survived on fish and orc and whatever else came his way, but I daresay that Dwarven tastebuds aren't accustomed to orc-meat.

Birds of the high peaks? Or all imported foods... If imported, would they not have a spectacularly diverse menu?

[JennyHallu]

Mushrooms. I would guess that dwarves, preferring to live, like Hobbits, underground, would perhaps share their prediliction for musrooms. And perhaps for meat they would stick to smaller livestock animals, like sheep, rather than try to herd cattle, which would be almost four times their size, not to mention they would challenge even their strength. Perhaps they have domesticated rabbits...these could be raised in a cage, and thus within their underground homes. They probably do not use a lot of game meats, because of their weak woodcraft. I would assume freshwater fish like trout and catfish, and perhaps small game, as well as smaller animals that could be domesticated. For grain and vegetables, I think they would probably import. Dale is located so close to Erebor that it is not a stretch to suppose that much of the Dalemen's livelihood is derived from supporting the dwarves, but I doubt they purchase anything too exotic, or prepare anything too complicated, just because their character tends to be sturdy and practical. It always seemed to me that Gimli and the hobbits had by and large a fairly similar worldview.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I doubt they purchase anything too exotic, or prepare anything too complicated, just because their character tends to be sturdy and practical. It always seemed to me that Gimli and the hobbits had by and large a fairly similar worldview.

Very true. I imagine a nice hearty stew would go over fantastically.

And while I love the idea of curry down south, I can't help but see Dol Amrothians eating a lot of fish stews, dried fish, fish casserole... And duck. I can imagine duck finding its way to their tables, though I'm pretty sure swan would be frowned upon. Sushi? I can imagine it.

[JennyHallu]

I can't help but see Dol Amrothians eating a lot of fish stews, dried fish, fish casserole...

Nah...but not for any good reasons...I always had a crush on Prince Imrahil, and I don't like fish. So I don't want Imrahil to have fish-breath.

I always imagined Dol Amroth (and the nearby lands of Belfalas) to have a hearty sort of Italian cuisine. Heavy pastas in rich sauces with lots of vegetables. Lamb and exotic seafood for meat, and perhaps pickled fish like anchovies or sardines, if they ever eat preserved fish at all...why on earth would they ever eat dried fish? It would be available year round, even to the poorest of Imrahil's people!

The location in the south of a fairly temperate continent and the proximity to both the Sea and mountains...this is what my brain instantly pops up.


Oh and the Dwarvish diet, I think, would be peppery. Not hot...but peppery.

[Nogrod]

A few comments...

=Feanor of... Nogrod, have you any recipes from the Beornings? Anguirel's post of lembas notwithstanding, all foods posted thus far have one failing: meat. Not that that's a real failing, mind you, but... vegetarians like cooking too.

The Indian food of Southern Gondor sounds promising... spices and all easiliy available through sea-trade... Any non-meat dishes you know of that they might have served up? Something fruity that the Elves might be fond of?

I do have a couple of ideas for the Beornings and this Indian-styled South-Gondor in abundance (well, bragging a little here perhaps...). I'll promise next to come up with something vegetarian.

=Estelyn. The original intent of this thread was for discussion on food in Middle-earth. We already have a recipe thread here: Arda Recipe Book. Please post your recipes there to make finding them all easier.

Since this topic is more speculative than actual book discussion, I'm moving the thread to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to discuss there.

=Eowyntje. I think the Arda cookbook is a little less serious then this one, containing Mawe's muffins, Yavanna's Yam and orc Stew, where as this topic tries to think of recipes that could actually be made in middle earth (if it existed)

Well. Indeed the original intent was, unhappily, to do both: the discussion & the recipies (which may be a bad idea). But concerning the Arda Cookbook, I totally agree with Eowyntje's reply. My intention was not to come up with these "First you take two Balrogs" -kind of recipies. Fun stuff they may be at best, but for a different context. I have been quite honestly after an "what could they really have eaten" -stuff.

But what comes to moving this discussion to Novices and Newcomers, that's ok. for me. I kind of had some problems in the first place, about which would be the best place for this thread.

Lembas and the elven food are tough ones. Thinlómien is quite right in that. But still the recipe shared here looked delicious, at least on its own right.

=JennyHallu. Mushrooms. I would guess that dwarves, preferring to live, like Hobbits, underground, would perhaps share their prediliction for musrooms. And perhaps for meat they would stick to smaller livestock animals, like sheep, rather than try to herd cattle, which would be almost four times their size, not to mention they would challenge even their strength.

That's basically the same reason, why I haven't made very many Hobbit recipies with beef (there propably is one or two, which can be explained by the town of Bree and humans there raising & slaughtering the cattle). But Hobbits would have to have pigs... and therefore a wealth of pork-recipies.

JH's ideas about dwarf kitchen are overall reasonable. And the relations to Dale and even Esgaroth should be thought about. If there is some slavic in Lakeside kitchen, I would indeed be ready to bet on dwarvish kitchen sharing that. Isn't there something quite slavic in the dwarves anyway?

[JennyHallu]

Isn't there something quite slavic in the dwarves anyway?

Nordic, really, which isn't quite the same thing, but I don't really know how deep the differences run. I know we have some BDers from both Nordic and Slavic areas of Europe, perhaps we should kidnap them for their input. You yourself aren't that far from there, Nogrod. (I don't think, my geography sucks.)

[Child of the 7th Age]

"Pork recipes for hobbits?" Whoops, not my hobbits.

But I suppose you are right concerning the dearth of beef.

How about vegetarian hobbits?

[JennyHallu]

Unfortunately, Child, I don't think we have any record of vegetarian hobbits...but we do have vegetarian dishes they would probably enjoy.

Fried or sauteed mushrooms; seed, oat, or nut-cakes; I bet they would enjoy potatoes, cubed, seasoned, and fried or baked with thinly sliced onion in some butter or lard, (or olive or vegetable oil if you're trying to cook it yourself without clogging an artery) until tender.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Nordic, really, which isn't quite the same thing, but I don't really know how deep the differences run. I know we have some BDers from both Nordic and Slavic areas of Europe, perhaps we should kidnap them for their input. You yourself aren't that far from there, Nogrod. (I don't think, my geography sucks.)

Not that far at all...

I would see the Beornings eating in quite a Nordic style (even though Nordic palate is having lots of meat in it because of the cold climate - we would just have to exclude them).

We finns might be quite near the dwarves then - with our "brothers" in Hungary (getting the spices from there), and of course the russians?

Of course we finns share half (or a bit more) with overall Nordic (Scandinavian) kitchen, but we have also a wealth of a more eastern traditions in it.

So Scandinavian food is not slavic as such, but Finland is a place where these traditions clearly meet.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

"Pork recipes for hobbits?" Whoops, not my hobbits.

But I suppose you are right concerning the dearth of beef.

How about vegetarian hobbits?

Here we see the reason, why I thought there would be place for discussion. In my imagination the hobbits love mushrooms, veggies, pork, white bread, hard cheeses and any kind of an ale (+ a good smokeful of weed after dinner). That seems quite obvious to me. But as we see, we don't all share the same "obvious" ideas. That's why we would have to discuss these.

Sorry, the life outside the BD calls, and can't continue this right now. But I'll be back. This looks interesting.

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

"Pork recipes for hobbits?" Whoops, not my hobbits.

But I suppose you are right concerning the dearth of beef.

How about vegetarian hobbits?

I believe there is at least one mentioning in the Lord of the Rings, of a hobbit eating bacon:

There was beer in plentym and a mighty dish of mushrooms and bacon besides much other solid farmhouse fare

(book one, 'A shortcut to mushrooms')
I find it hard to believe hobbits were vegetarian, but of course you're free to create great vegetarian hobbit recepies.

To know more about the hobbit's eating habbits, we may have to look at their tradingcustoms. I think not everything about the hobbit kitchen was english, for example:
Hobbits grew and ate patatoes, for as far as I can tell, they have had them for quite a long time. However, since patatoes came from Amerika, Great Britian could not have had any before 1492. In fact, after destroying the Inca-civilasation, the spanish invaders did not notice the papatoe at all and thought it to be useless. It is only in the late 17th and 18th century that the papatoe begins to spread around Europe.
So in this matter, hobbiton can't have been like Britian, the shire must either have a different climate for patatoes to grow their naturaly, or they must trade or have traded with a region with that climate. But where in middle earth do we find people capable of trade with hobbits, having a south-amerika like climate?

Also, they have great wineyards, and grew tabacco which is not something Great Britian is famous for. Meriadoc Brandybuck said:

All the same, observations that I have made on my many journeys south have convinced me that the weed itsself is not native to our parts of the world, but came northward from the lower Anduin, wither it was, I suspect, originally brought over sea by the men of Westernesse

(prologue, 'concerning pipe-weed')
A sign of a quite long traderoot. If they imported pipeweed, what else did they import?

Maybe I'm digging to deep in all this, but I think finding out a bit about the middle earth traderoots would tell us a lot about their eatinghabbits.


So far in Lotr I've found notes of hobbits eating: patatoes, rabbits, herbs, mushrooms, carrots, cabigages, bread, corn, appels, honey, wine, beer, and pipeweed.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by eowyntje

I find it hard to believe hobbits were vegetarian, but of course you're free to create great vegetarian hobbit recepies.

Well of course! Hobbits love gardening. That's just something that they do. I doubt very much that they slather all of their fresh produce with chicken-stock.

And what growing zone, do you think, the Shire would be? I should know an approximate one (having worked in a greenhouse last summer and grown up in gardens)... but I've forgotten. If the hobbits grow cabbages and mushrooms and apples and carrots and the like, they must be quite near to my zone, which would mean they'd be able to grow all of my favorite berries (strawberries, blueberries, blackberries and blackcaps...), as well as squash, pumpkins (which we saw used in the very end of the RotK movie in the Dragon), pears and peaches, peppers, onions, garlic, tomatos, turnips, the occasional melon or plum depending on the season's conditions, grapes (ah yes, the wineyards)...

Which of these, though, would they actually have? Certainly I'm seeing little hobbit children lured to the kitchens by the smell of a baking apple crisp or something very equivilent, but would the hobbits have a fancy for sweet potato pie or carrot cake? Zucchini bread... now that's just heaven right there.

Sautèd red peppers with tomatos and onions? Fabulous. I can see it.

[eowyntje]

Well, I gess concerning vegetarian hobbits we can only agree to disagree, cause there is no way we can find an answer to that. All we know for sure is that not all hobbits are vegetarian, because there is mention of hobbits eating bacon.

I can defenitely see hobbits gathering berries, tomatoes, plums and other fruits like that, as they had vineyards they must have been able to grow grapes as well. So maybe the climate of the shire is quite like the climate of french, though with an entirely different culture. I'm not sure jet.
The beef thing is defenitely somehting that needs research, because cows don't produce just beef, there's milk and cheese for example

I wish I had 'The Hobbit' with me right now, I recall Bilbo serving the drawfs boiled eggs, indicating the presence of chiken, and apple pie. But pie doesn't necesarily contain milk, so that's no proof of the presence of cows in the shire. I'll look it up when I get home to my lotr collection. :P

[Child of the 7th Age]

I think we can assume the "growing zone" and crops would be similar to the situation in Victorian or Edwardian England. I did not mean to say that hobbits were vegetarians . But knowing what I know about rural folk in earlier times, meat and fowl would not have been an everyday thing. I do think that chicken would have been the most frequent "meat", with pork in second place. They could have caught fish from shore in small lakes, ponds, and rivers, since they weren't keen on boats.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

I think we can assume the "growing zone" and crops would be similar to the situation in Victorian or Edwardian England. I did not mean to say that hobbits were vegetarians . But knowing what I know about rural folk in earlier times, meat and fowl would not have been an everyday thing. I do think that chicken would have been the most frequent "meat", with pork in second place. They could have caught fish from shore in small lakes, ponds, and rivers, since they weren't keen on boats.

This seems to me to be quite true. During earlier times (in the "west"), meat has been somewhat a rarity: happily and joyously consumed, when possible, but still not everyday stuff as it is nowadays. There's a long path of cultural history between now-a-day westerners and their forefathers (and -mothers). Although we should remember this basic rule of history / cultural anthropology: the farther away from the equator, the higher percentage of the daily diet is coming from meat. In scandinavia you couldn't have survived with only berries and mushrooms...

And anyway. In my recollection, Tolkien's Hobbitton, is more like the early 20th. century (or late 19th.) rural england than a Victorian age one (although I admit I might be wrong). This is just an image I have.

But tell me if I'm wrong: I just can't imagine folks of the Shire to eat fish! (Here we go, Child of the 7th. Age!!!). I could think the hobbits of around the Brandybuck river would eat fish regularily, though.

[Nogrod]

Hello everyone!

I'm truly pleased to see this thread coming to live, after a couple of weeks silence. The discussion has been interesting, and I hope it would continue as such.

Still, Estelyn has voiced a reasonable concern about this one, and I think she (?) is partly right. So within a day or two, or three, ahead now, I'm going to open a new thread for the recipies only (I'll establish the name of the thread here as I have founded it = do not know it yet: any suggestions?). That way we can continue the discussion here as it is already going on, and anyone wishing to contribute with a recipie or to check one to try it out, should then visit the recipie thread.

So this one continuing as a discussion forum, the new one serving as a "cookbook".

And still, I am encouraging others to share their recipies also with all the rest of us.

PS. Don't bother with those "Ringwraith-mousse" or "Orc-pudding" -recipies. The earlier culinary threads are quite filled up with those...

[eowyntje]

I am still searching for any food hobbits ate

So far in the 'lotr' I've found records of hobbits eating: patatoes, rabbits, herbs, mushrooms, carrots, cabigages, bread, corn, appels, honey, wine, beer, and pipeweed.

And in 'the Hobbit' I found: tea, cake, gingerbread, coffee, port, buter, applepie, raspberryjam, cheese, lettuce, pork, eggs, chicken, tomatoes.

I have of course not found out all that is said about the eating-behaviour of hobbits jet, but it seems quite clear that hobbits must have had an extensive trade-network to get all these things, as there is no climate in which they can all be produced.
Also, I think the mentioning of cheese in 'the hobbit' makes clear that hobbits had acces to milk and beef. (wether they ate it is another thing)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by eowyntje

Also, I think the mentioning of cheese in 'the hobbit' makes clear that hobbits had acces to milk and beef. (wether they ate it is another thing)

This same thing has come across in a couple of mails, and seems to call for attention. It is not, that only cows produce milk. It is a common characteristics of mammals in general. Quite a many of those are being used by humans in the real world - so why not by hobbits in the Middle Earth? Propably the most famous cheeses in the world are made from something other than cow's milk, f.ex. goat's or sheep's milk!

Otherwise, thank's to Eowyntje's toil and labour. These lists are a great help!

[eowyntje]

Good point, I totally forgot about that. I'll take it in consideration when I look for things hobbits might eat.

[Thinlómien]

Dwarves could keep chicken in cages. They could hunt small mammals and mountain deers and gazelles, since they can use bows. (I'm referring to The Hobbit and Mirkwood, where Thorin shots the deer.) Why would they bother learning so much archery if they preferred hand-to-hand combat in war, if not hunt? (I actually began to fancy my theory of hunting dwarves. Any opinions?)

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by eowyntje

I am still searching for any food hobbits ate

So far in the 'lotr' I've found records of hobbits eating: patatoes, rabbits, herbs, mushrooms, carrots, cabigages, bread, corn, appels, honey, wine, beer, and pipeweed.

And in 'the Hobbit' I found: tea, cake, gingerbread, coffee, port, buter, applepie, raspberryjam, cheese, lettuce, pork, eggs, chicken, tomatoes.

I have of course not found out all that is said about the eating-behaviour of hobbits jet, but it seems quite clear that hobbits must have had an extensive trade-network to get all these things, as there is no climate in which they can all be produced.
Also, I think the mentioning of cheese in 'the hobbit' makes clear that hobbits had acces to milk and beef. (wether they ate it is another thing)

All of those things would be able to be produced in the English climate, apart from pipeweed which I would certainly be growing outdoors if I could! Though it may be possible to grow it indoors under UV lights? Not that I shall try that as the police helicopter with its thermal imaging cam might think I am growing something else! I couldn't imagine Tolkien, a committed smoker, leaving out the joys of tobacco for his Hobbits.

Coffee might have been chicory coffee, which was extremely common here until recently; I believe coffee can also be made from acorns and hazelnuts? I have colleagues who grow tomatoes on their windowsills at work, and my father once grew some in his porch; and grapes do grow outdoors in the warmer parts of England.

I think Tolkien noticed that tobacco, potatoes and tomatoes were an 'anachronism' but he happily left them in.

Meat would not necessarily have been so hard to come by if we are going to equate The Shire with late Victorian/Edwardian England. But people would have eaten many more cuts of meat than we would find palatable today - things like brawn (brains), offal, tongue, trotters, oxtail, black pudding (mmmm.....), tripe etc. As my grandfather used to say, the only part of a pig you cannot eat is the squeak. Sorry to any veggies out there. In fact, game, beef, pork and mutton/lamb would have been much more common than would chicken; I understand that when my dad was young the only time you got chicken was when one of the hens died, and then you'd have 'old hen pie'. Sometimes they would allow the males to grow a little and eat them too, as there was less need for cockerels, obviously.

Fish would have been a regular meal. Historically, fish ponds were found all over the English countryside as a regular and easy to maintain and catch supply of food. Maybe the rivers in The Shire would also have been teeming with freshwater shrimp and crayfish too.

I like the way the Hobbits are excited to find wild mushrooms growing, as even though mushrooms are easy to cultivate (they could be grown in the darker rooms of smials!) there is nothing like the taste of field mushrooms, and the locations where they can be found are usually a locally guarded secret.

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps the "pipeweed" Tolkien refers to is a plant unique to Middle-Earth, albeit sharing many properties with tobacco.

Also, I am not altogether sure whether tobacco could not be grown in England. I am familiar with the climate in which tobacco is commonly grown here in the United States: areas with fairly temperate climates and warm, but not terribly hot summers. Tobacco is often grown in the Smokey (or Appalachian) mountains, so large snowfalls and/or strong rains (rain tends to get caught on the mountain-slopes) are something the plant is certainly hardy enough to handle.

EDIT: In a fantasy country, can potatoes truly be referred to as an Anachronism? If you define Middle-Earth as only referring to Europe's climate and plant life, you give us Americans, West across the Sea, an awful lot of credit.

Perhaps Tolkien decided that potatoes, in the 450 some odd years since their introduction in Europe, had become such an integral part of the culture and cuisine of the British Isles he could not separate them. Or maybe it didn't occur to him to try. Sometimes I fear we read too much into the tale...As my husband would say, "Sometimes a red car is just a red car," signifying nothing beyond the idea that perhaps Tolkien had a soft spot for fish and chips, or for tobacco.

[Thinlómien]

I'm too lazy to find the exact quote, but isn't Sam in Mordor dreaming about waddling through the river? If hobbits fished like standing in a river and piercing the fish with harpoons?

And of course, we're forgetting one of the most famous parts of the chapter of Herbs and stewed rabbit! Sam boasts to Gollum about S. Gamgee's fish and chips. That, if something, proves that hobbits ate fish.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thinlomien

I'm too lazy to find the exact quote, but isn't Sam in Mordor dreaming about waddling through the river? If hobbits fished like standing in a river and piercing the fish with harpoons?

And of course, we're forgetting one of the most famous parts of the chapter of Herbs and stewed rabbit! Sam boasts to Gollum about S. Gamgee's fish and chips. That, if something, proves that hobbits ate fish.

There are lots of ways of fishing that don't involve getting in a boat, from trout tickling to basket casting, to even stringing up nets across a watercourse to catch whatever might swim or drift that way. I'm sure Hobbits would think of some ingenious way of catching tasty fisheses that didn't involve nassty boatses!

And it seems Gollum himself is skilled in the art of trout tickling, something I can imagine many a Hobbit lad doing on a hot day.

I wonder if there was a water bailiff in the Shire, waiting to catch people without a permit? It's happened to me, that's why I find the thought appealing...

Originally Posted by Jenny Hallu

Perhaps Tolkien decided that potatoes, in the 450 some odd years since their introduction in Europe, had become such an integral part of the culture and cuisine of the British Isles he could not separate them. Or maybe it didn't occur to him to try. Sometimes I fear we read too much into the tale...As my husband would say, "Sometimes a red car is just a red car," signifying nothing beyond the idea that perhaps Tolkien had a soft spot for fish and chips, or for tobacco.

I think taters have become such a strong feature in British cuisine that we almost think they are a native vegetable! Part of the reason (amongst many) why Ireland suffered so badly during the potato famine was that they had such an agricultural monoculture and had few other crops to fall back on when blight struck! I know that where I grew up there were fields as far as you could see which were devoted to growing taters.

EDIT: I've just found out that tobacco will grow just about anywhere - it's a big crop in Sweden apparently, where chewing tobacco is popular - it's called snus. What's more, it's totally legal and duty free. So pipeweed is perfectly feasible in a Shire which is equivalent to England.

[JennyHallu]

EDIT: I've just found out that tobacco will grow just about anywhere - it's a big crop in Sweden apparently, where chewing tobacco is popular - it's called snus. What's more, it's totally legal and duty free. So pipeweed is perfectly feasible in a Shire which is equivalent to England.

Yay! Thank you Lalwende for making me feel smart...wonderful to be conjecturizing (BSing) and have some dedicated, intelligent individual do the research that proves you correct!

Oh...and I think Dalemen came up with sandwiches. Don't ask me why, it doesn't matter, I can just picture Brand sitting with his feet on a table chowing down on a great big slab of roast-beef sandwiched between thick slices of dark bread with horseradish.

THERE IS NO LOGIC TO THIS BELIEF. But I am SURE that Dalemen like sandwiches.

[Nogrod]

Good points over Hobbits eating fish. I'll surely change my mindset with this one - and start to plan fish-recipies for hobbits. There seem to be some natural limitations though: no sea-fish (tuna, swordfish etc.), and propably less of salmon-like "big-ones" (I'm not totally sure about this later one, but at least for a while, it seems right). So, small fish, white-fleshed - I don't have a vocabulary at my home at the moment, so I couldn't give any suggestions, but in Finnish...

We'll come back to this, feel free to make suggestions!

And JennyHallu! I do share your weird idea of sandwiches with the Dalemen. There seems to be something right in that one, don't know why, either. Let's see, if we can come with a reasoning over that?

Concerning potatoes. I would be ready to line up with those who think, that Tolkien just felt them so indispendable with his time's British kitchen, that he didn't pay any attention... and anyway, after being imported from South-Americas to Europe in this real world, they surely grow well here. So why to take the actual botanical history of the "real world" as a reference to things in the Middle Earth? The same goes with tobacco, and why not with some other items too: tomatoes and (bell)peppers for example? These are not original plants of Europe either... Whether the Middle Earth has anything to do with Europe in the first place, that's also another question to be asked? But clearly, it's our only way to go: early twentieth century Europe. That was Tolkien's world from which he wrote from.

Sorry, but I have been busy lately, and will be for a couple of days. I'll open the new thread for the "recipies only", in the near future, and try to open it up with some new recipies, some vegetarian one's also. Be ready to contribute your own to that shared thread!

And lastly: talking about vegetarianism. Do you think the Beornings were just vegetarians, or were they also vegans? So did they approve of the use of the products from animals (milk, cheese, hides - after the death of an animal, etc.) or were they strictly against any usage of the animal-products? Who remembers "the Hobbit" the best? I think, I would go for just vegetarianism, but have you others any ideas, or grounds for thinking the other way around?

[Lalwendë]

They could have salmon in The Shire - the Brandywine is a long river, and I imagine if there were Salmon in Middle earth then they might swim up it. they could be caught at weirs, or even with nets strung across the river. Maybe Brandybucks liked a spot of fly fishing?

I can imagine Eels would have been eaten too, caught from small streams.

The Beornings must have been vegetarian, not vegan, as they ate honey didn't they?