The Hobbit - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-15-2006, 02:20 AM

It's interesting that you should mention the element of "luck" in the riddle game, Lhuna. Both Bilbo and Gollum were lucky, I thought at first. But closer reading has brought me to agree with the idea of Bilbo's luck.

The first answers were easy on both sides, warming up, so to speak. Then Gollum had to dig deep for memories of sun and daisies, as well as for eggs - not really the result of luck, but of thinking. "Fish" was Bilbo's first 'lucky' answer, but the real luck was with "time", which was spoken unintentionally. Divine intervention? Possibly...

The "pockets" riddle was also spoken unintentionally, as a question to himself. Gollum could have passed over it and demanded a genuine riddle, but he accepted it. Did Bilbo have help from 'above'/'outside'?

As a matter of fact, wasn't the pockets question absolutely necessary to the further development of events in LotR? If Gollum hadn't realized that Bilbo had his ring, would he have left the caves to search for it, or thought it must be in there and looked even deeper for it? And if Gollum hadn't left his 'home', would the ring ever have been destroyed?

Yes, I too make the connection with the bigger and later story when I read The Hobbit, especially this chapter. But that's not surprising - after all, it was revised to fit those 'future' events!

JennyHallu · 02-15-2006, 06:59 AM

If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster.

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-15-2006, 09:48 AM

True, but could Frodo have destroyed the Ring? I am sure Gollum was necessary.

I've been thinking more about the Riddle Game, which not only gives this chapter its title but also constitutes a major part of it. We know that it progresses from easy to difficult, but is the choice of riddles significant and is there some meaning to the order in which they're given? We have the answers: mountain, teeth, wind, sun on daisy, dark, egg, fish, fish/table/man/stool/cat, time. The abstract concepts (dark, time) come toward the end, but not back to back; there are two complex answers (sun/daisy and the legs riddle).

The last real riddle was about "time" - now, perhaps the fact that my fanfiction is about a Hobbit clockmaker makes me more aware of the connection between a hobbit and time than I would normally be, but it seems that Hobbits (who have few clocks and no watches) measure time by concrete signs - light and dark, hunger (we have Bilbo mentioning the feeling that it must be time for a meal), and so on. The abstract concept doesn't seem as important to them, which would account for Bilbo's trouble with the riddle.

But Gollum, who has lived 'beyond his time' and for whom time must pass slowly, all alone underground, with no light to differentiate and define his days, might have thought about it more.

Do you think this particular riddle has a deeper significance for the story? I'm still pondering...

One detail I noticed was the use of the word "chestnut" for an easy riddle. Now, I've read a lot, but this use of that word is one with which I'm hardly familiar. Its meaning is recognizable from the context, of course, but is it one you would normally know?

JennyHallu · 02-15-2006, 10:02 AM

A chestnut is an old, frequently repeated, joke, story, song or riddle. I don't know the etymology of the term, but perhaps a botanical chestnut is one particularly easy to crack...

It is idiomatic, but it's a common enough term to describe an easy riddle or brainteaser.

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-15-2006, 10:05 AM

Interesting - the chestnuts I've opened in real life were not at all easy to crack! But I suppose some expressions are more traditional than true... (As if pie baking were easy - or have you ever tried taking candy from a baby?!)

JennyHallu · 02-15-2006, 10:08 AM

I've never eaten a chestnut so I wouldn't know. However, I just found the origin of the phrase!!

Quote:

This expression comes from William Dimond's play, The Broken Sword (1816), in which one character keeps repeating the same stories, one of them about a cork tree, and is interrupted each time by another character who says “Chestnut, you mean . . . I have heard you tell the joke twenty-seven times and I am sure it was a chestnut.”

Lhunardawen · 02-16-2006, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster.

On this I beg to differ. As someone who crams a lot and lives on procrastination, something is much easier and faster done by me when the deadline is in sight. In the same way I daresay that if not for their knowledge that Sauron is hunting for the Ring, they could have easily dilly-dallied even with Gandalf telling them of the Quest's urgency.

I think that even if Bilbo made no mention of his pocket, Gollum would readily suspect him of stealing it. After all, who else was there when he lost the ring? Somehow I think he would deny that losing it was his fault, especially after being able to keep it secured "for ages and ages," as he said.

Formendacil · 02-20-2006, 12:27 AM

It seems to have taken me a very long time to post here...

Possibly because, although this is one of my absolute favourite chapters in The Hobbit, I feel I have very little to say.

Therefore, allow me to begin by re-hashing what I've said elsewhere about my thoughts concerning the reworking of this chapter- a reworking that is probably Tolkien's most dramatic showing of his perfectionist trait regarding his written works.

Being only just turned 19- and Canadian, I have only ever owned or read actual copies of The Hobbit from the Third Edition- long after the major changes from the original version, in which Gollum was made a great deal more in keeping with his LotR self.

Personally, I never, not once, felt a difference between the style, tone, and mood of this chapter of the book than the rest of it. If it is, perhaps, a bit darker than those previous, that seemed to fit as Bilbo was now in a much more perilous situation, being trapped underground- alone- with the prospect of running into Goblins, and in danger of being eaten by some foul Gollum-creature.

Nor did I find things to jarring when we return to the original tale in the next chapter, seeing as things remain quite perilous...

Now, regarding my personal feelings towards this chapter, I've always enjoyed the Riddle Contest. Bilbo's luck is very extraordinary, and, if anything, that tended to make me think this chapter rather more childish than the rest, rather than more adult or dark.

Another thought that occurs to me, digging deep back into the recesses of my mind, when I had read The Hobbit, but not yet moved on to the Lord of the Rings, is how remarkable a character Gollum was. Despite only making an appearance here, in one chapter, and that rather early in the book, he makes a vivid impression, and really stays with you. Of the other characters in The Hobbit, only Bilbo, Gandalf, and Smaug really made such an impression on me. Thorin comes close, but only after a book of him. Elrond comes close after reading the Lord of the Rings. Beorn, Balin, and Bombur are all very distant seconds...

Perhaps the rewriting is the reason Gollum was so forceful, but having since read the original version, I'm inclined to think otherwise...

Thinlómien · 02-20-2006, 02:08 AM

Gollum is undoubtedly a strong character. When the book was read aloud to me I wondered after the book was finished what happened to Gollum. He left an impression so I was delighted (if that's a proper word for I didn't like Gollum) when he reappeared in LotR.

deal_with_it · 03-30-2006, 09:01 AM

Would a fear of Sting be enough to hold off Gollum long enough for Bilbo to slip the Ring on anyway and basically repeat what happened?

Would he have been eaten?

littlemanpoet · 08-23-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster.

(How did I miss this back in Feb? ) If Gollum had not left his caves, then Sauron would never have sent the Black Riders to the Shire; but just as critical, Gandalf and Aragorn would not have found Gollum and derived the critical pieces of information that proved the motivation to get Frodo out of the Shire at all. So things could have gone on for a long time the way they had been, except that now the Dark Lord is looking for his Ring, and he is building his forces slowly, and very likely wins through sheer numbers. So it was in the nick of time, and necessary (providentially?) that Gollum left his caves, craving the Ring.

deagol · 05-01-2010, 09:45 AM

While I think we can all agree that "What have I got in my pocket?" is not a riddle, I'm not sure Bilbo cheated so much as he was a pawn of the one thing I haven't seen addressed in this thread, the will of the Ring itself -- or Sauron's will -- if you prefer. Of course, if we're reading in sequence, we don't know any of this yet. But for the purposes of this discussion, a panoramic view is helpful. It seems clear enough that Bilbo was about to be hot, buttered toast -- he guessed the time riddle only because he couldn't stammer out the words "I need more . . . " and the "What have I got in my pocket?" question was merely an audible thought to displace the riddle that Bilbo couldn't think of. He was doomed. The game was over, except that Smeagol (whom we don't know yet) gave him a break. Why would he do this? Was it really Smeagol asserting what was left of himself in recognition of some lost long ago kinship he felt with Bilbo? I think the entire sequence of events (in the revision) is simply the Ring (Sauron) exercising his will on these two poor creatures, one simply wretched and the other more than a bit silly. The Ring couldn't stay under the mountain any more than it could have stayed at the bottom of Anduin. It was itself, through its master's force of will, trying as best it could to get home. This explains why a perfectly honorable hobbit like Bilbo would even entertain the notion of asking an unfair riddle, and also why a vile wretch like Gollum would let him get away with it.

Either that or I am entirely wrong.

02-15-2006, 02:20 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	It's interesting that you should mention the element of "luck" in the riddle game, Lhuna. Both Bilbo and Gollum were lucky, I thought at first. But closer reading has brought me to agree with the idea of Bilbo's luck. The first answers were easy on both sides, warming up, so to speak. Then Gollum had to dig deep for memories of sun and daisies, as well as for eggs - not really the result of luck, but of thinking. "Fish" was Bilbo's first 'lucky' answer, but the real luck was with "time", which was spoken unintentionally. Divine intervention? Possibly... The "pockets" riddle was also spoken unintentionally, as a question to himself. Gollum could have passed over it and demanded a genuine riddle, but he accepted it. Did Bilbo have help from 'above'/'outside'? As a matter of fact, wasn't the pockets question absolutely necessary to the further development of events in LotR? If Gollum hadn't realized that Bilbo had his ring, would he have left the caves to search for it, or thought it must be in there and looked even deeper for it? And if Gollum hadn't left his 'home', would the ring ever have been destroyed? Yes, I too make the connection with the bigger and later story when I read The Hobbit, especially this chapter. But that's not surprising - after all, it was revised to fit those 'future' events! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-15-2006, 06:59 AM	#2
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	If Gollum had not felt it necessary to leave his caves, Sauron would not have found him and forced "Baggins" from him. Without that knowledge, Frodo's journey would have been much easier, and faster. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-15-2006, 09:48 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	True, but could Frodo have destroyed the Ring? I am sure Gollum was necessary. I've been thinking more about the Riddle Game, which not only gives this chapter its title but also constitutes a major part of it. We know that it progresses from easy to difficult, but is the choice of riddles significant and is there some meaning to the order in which they're given? We have the answers: mountain, teeth, wind, sun on daisy, dark, egg, fish, fish/table/man/stool/cat, time. The abstract concepts (dark, time) come toward the end, but not back to back; there are two complex answers (sun/daisy and the legs riddle). The last real riddle was about "time" - now, perhaps the fact that my fanfiction is about a Hobbit clockmaker makes me more aware of the connection between a hobbit and time than I would normally be, but it seems that Hobbits (who have few clocks and no watches) measure time by concrete signs - light and dark, hunger (we have Bilbo mentioning the feeling that it must be time for a meal), and so on. The abstract concept doesn't seem as important to them, which would account for Bilbo's trouble with the riddle. But Gollum, who has lived 'beyond his time' and for whom time must pass slowly, all alone underground, with no light to differentiate and define his days, might have thought about it more. Do you think this particular riddle has a deeper significance for the story? I'm still pondering... One detail I noticed was the use of the word "chestnut" for an easy riddle. Now, I've read a lot, but this use of that word is one with which I'm hardly familiar. Its meaning is recognizable from the context, of course, but is it one you would normally know? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-15-2006, 10:02 AM	#4
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	A chestnut is an old, frequently repeated, joke, story, song or riddle. I don't know the etymology of the term, but perhaps a botanical chestnut is one particularly easy to crack... It is idiomatic, but it's a common enough term to describe an easy riddle or brainteaser. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-15-2006, 10:05 AM	#5
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Interesting - the chestnuts I've opened in real life were not at all easy to crack! But I suppose some expressions are more traditional than true... (As if pie baking were easy - or have you ever tried taking candy from a baby?!) __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-20-2006, 12:27 AM	#8
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	It seems to have taken me a very long time to post here... Possibly because, although this is one of my absolute favourite chapters in The Hobbit, I feel I have very little to say. Therefore, allow me to begin by re-hashing what I've said elsewhere about my thoughts concerning the reworking of this chapter- a reworking that is probably Tolkien's most dramatic showing of his perfectionist trait regarding his written works. Being only just turned 19- and Canadian, I have only ever owned or read actual copies of The Hobbit from the Third Edition- long after the major changes from the original version, in which Gollum was made a great deal more in keeping with his LotR self. Personally, I never, not once, felt a difference between the style, tone, and mood of this chapter of the book than the rest of it. If it is, perhaps, a bit darker than those previous, that seemed to fit as Bilbo was now in a much more perilous situation, being trapped underground- alone- with the prospect of running into Goblins, and in danger of being eaten by some foul Gollum-creature. Nor did I find things to jarring when we return to the original tale in the next chapter, seeing as things remain quite perilous... Now, regarding my personal feelings towards this chapter, I've always enjoyed the Riddle Contest. Bilbo's luck is very extraordinary, and, if anything, that tended to make me think this chapter rather more childish than the rest, rather than more adult or dark. Another thought that occurs to me, digging deep back into the recesses of my mind, when I had read The Hobbit, but not yet moved on to the Lord of the Rings, is how remarkable a character Gollum was. Despite only making an appearance here, in one chapter, and that rather early in the book, he makes a vivid impression, and really stays with you. Of the other characters in The Hobbit, only Bilbo, Gandalf, and Smaug really made such an impression on me. Thorin comes close, but only after a book of him. Elrond comes close after reading the Lord of the Rings. Beorn, Balin, and Bombur are all very distant seconds... Perhaps the rewriting is the reason Gollum was so forceful, but having since read the original version, I'm inclined to think otherwise... __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

02-20-2006, 02:08 AM	#9
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Gollum is undoubtedly a strong character. When the book was read aloud to me I wondered after the book was finished what happened to Gollum. He left an impression so I was delighted (if that's a proper word for I didn't like Gollum) when he reappeared in LotR. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

03-30-2006, 09:01 AM	#10
deal_with_it Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 42	What if Bilbo had lost the Game? Would a fear of Sting be enough to hold off Gollum long enough for Bilbo to slip the Ring on anyway and basically repeat what happened? Would he have been eaten?

05-01-2010, 09:45 AM	#12
deagol Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 24	While I think we can all agree that "What have I got in my pocket?" is not a riddle, I'm not sure Bilbo cheated so much as he was a pawn of the one thing I haven't seen addressed in this thread, the will of the Ring itself -- or Sauron's will -- if you prefer. Of course, if we're reading in sequence, we don't know any of this yet. But for the purposes of this discussion, a panoramic view is helpful. It seems clear enough that Bilbo was about to be hot, buttered toast -- he guessed the time riddle only because he couldn't stammer out the words "I need more . . . " and the "What have I got in my pocket?" question was merely an audible thought to displace the riddle that Bilbo couldn't think of. He was doomed. The game was over, except that Smeagol (whom we don't know yet) gave him a break. Why would he do this? Was it really Smeagol asserting what was left of himself in recognition of some lost long ago kinship he felt with Bilbo? I think the entire sequence of events (in the revision) is simply the Ring (Sauron) exercising his will on these two poor creatures, one simply wretched and the other more than a bit silly. The Ring couldn't stay under the mountain any more than it could have stayed at the bottom of Anduin. It was itself, through its master's force of will, trying as best it could to get home. This explains why a perfectly honorable hobbit like Bilbo would even entertain the notion of asking an unfair riddle, and also why a vile wretch like Gollum would let him get away with it. Either that or I am entirely wrong. Last edited by deagol; 07-21-2010 at 07:28 AM.