The Hobbit - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-15-2006, 09:48 AM

True, but could Frodo have destroyed the Ring? I am sure Gollum was necessary.

I've been thinking more about the Riddle Game, which not only gives this chapter its title but also constitutes a major part of it. We know that it progresses from easy to difficult, but is the choice of riddles significant and is there some meaning to the order in which they're given? We have the answers: mountain, teeth, wind, sun on daisy, dark, egg, fish, fish/table/man/stool/cat, time. The abstract concepts (dark, time) come toward the end, but not back to back; there are two complex answers (sun/daisy and the legs riddle).

The last real riddle was about "time" - now, perhaps the fact that my fanfiction is about a Hobbit clockmaker makes me more aware of the connection between a hobbit and time than I would normally be, but it seems that Hobbits (who have few clocks and no watches) measure time by concrete signs - light and dark, hunger (we have Bilbo mentioning the feeling that it must be time for a meal), and so on. The abstract concept doesn't seem as important to them, which would account for Bilbo's trouble with the riddle.

But Gollum, who has lived 'beyond his time' and for whom time must pass slowly, all alone underground, with no light to differentiate and define his days, might have thought about it more.

Do you think this particular riddle has a deeper significance for the story? I'm still pondering...

One detail I noticed was the use of the word "chestnut" for an easy riddle. Now, I've read a lot, but this use of that word is one with which I'm hardly familiar. Its meaning is recognizable from the context, of course, but is it one you would normally know?

JennyHallu · 02-15-2006, 10:02 AM

A chestnut is an old, frequently repeated, joke, story, song or riddle. I don't know the etymology of the term, but perhaps a botanical chestnut is one particularly easy to crack...

It is idiomatic, but it's a common enough term to describe an easy riddle or brainteaser.

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-15-2006, 10:05 AM

Interesting - the chestnuts I've opened in real life were not at all easy to crack! But I suppose some expressions are more traditional than true... (As if pie baking were easy - or have you ever tried taking candy from a baby?!)

JennyHallu · 02-15-2006, 10:08 AM

I've never eaten a chestnut so I wouldn't know. However, I just found the origin of the phrase!!

Quote:

This expression comes from William Dimond's play, The Broken Sword (1816), in which one character keeps repeating the same stories, one of them about a cork tree, and is interrupted each time by another character who says “Chestnut, you mean . . . I have heard you tell the joke twenty-seven times and I am sure it was a chestnut.”

02-15-2006, 09:48 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	True, but could Frodo have destroyed the Ring? I am sure Gollum was necessary. I've been thinking more about the Riddle Game, which not only gives this chapter its title but also constitutes a major part of it. We know that it progresses from easy to difficult, but is the choice of riddles significant and is there some meaning to the order in which they're given? We have the answers: mountain, teeth, wind, sun on daisy, dark, egg, fish, fish/table/man/stool/cat, time. The abstract concepts (dark, time) come toward the end, but not back to back; there are two complex answers (sun/daisy and the legs riddle). The last real riddle was about "time" - now, perhaps the fact that my fanfiction is about a Hobbit clockmaker makes me more aware of the connection between a hobbit and time than I would normally be, but it seems that Hobbits (who have few clocks and no watches) measure time by concrete signs - light and dark, hunger (we have Bilbo mentioning the feeling that it must be time for a meal), and so on. The abstract concept doesn't seem as important to them, which would account for Bilbo's trouble with the riddle. But Gollum, who has lived 'beyond his time' and for whom time must pass slowly, all alone underground, with no light to differentiate and define his days, might have thought about it more. Do you think this particular riddle has a deeper significance for the story? I'm still pondering... One detail I noticed was the use of the word "chestnut" for an easy riddle. Now, I've read a lot, but this use of that word is one with which I'm hardly familiar. Its meaning is recognizable from the context, of course, but is it one you would normally know? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-15-2006, 10:02 AM	#2
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	A chestnut is an old, frequently repeated, joke, story, song or riddle. I don't know the etymology of the term, but perhaps a botanical chestnut is one particularly easy to crack... It is idiomatic, but it's a common enough term to describe an easy riddle or brainteaser. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-15-2006, 10:05 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Interesting - the chestnuts I've opened in real life were not at all easy to crack! But I suppose some expressions are more traditional than true... (As if pie baking were easy - or have you ever tried taking candy from a baby?!) __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'