LotR2-TTT-Seq02 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Essex · 02-17-2006, 11:15 AM

just a little thing first. its the little mistakes that sometimes urk me more than the 'big' ones. "They're taking the hobbits North East to Isengard". Sorry can't buy this one. North WEST you silly elf!

I can come up with an answer for Legolas looking to his left towards the Orcs on the Western Shore whilst on the river (he was going through the bit of the RIver where it loops around near the Wold), but I can't figure out a way around North East.......

alatar · 02-17-2006, 11:36 AM

Cool that you caught that. Many who are unfamiliar with ME geography will not realize the error until they get a glimpse of the map later in the film (I think), and by that time would most likely have forgotten what 'Legolas the compass-challenged elf' said. My question is why didn't he say "south east," as the way PJ has set up Saruman, I don't see any reason to have the hobbits go to Orthanc.

Tuor in Gondolin · 02-17-2006, 11:40 AM

As astutely described by Alatar , this is an example of
PJ's schisophrenic nature in presenting LOTR, great
scenery and bits taken correctly/brilliantly from the
book versus a tendency to insert rather silly "humor"
and nonbook inserts which mostly
don't work. Of course PJ could have portrayed the chase
as Aragorn and Legolas running along tossing Gimli
back and forth between them.

But if you ignore his changes this scene does
capture very well the orc/three hunters chase.

Lathriel · 02-17-2006, 01:28 PM

My brother tirelessly tries to imitate the "Manflesh!" part. It gets kind of annoying but it tells me that my brother is more obsessed with LOTR then he will admit. (Yeah, my conversion was almost succesful!!)

Anyway, I love the scenery in this sequence, especially during the running since you get this flying feeling. (Especially in the theatre which is why they should bring LOTR to Imax

)

I think the first sign of Pippin's "growing up" is when he leaves his brooch. It is a clever idea and certainly not something Pippin would have thought of back in FOTR. He is becoming less of a fool although he still has his "stupid moments"

I like that this sequence contrasts the story of Frodo and Sam because the pace is certainly much higher. Which I think is good because otherwise this movie would really drag.

Essex · 02-20-2006, 03:13 AM

Now we get to the point in the movies were Jackson takes a detour from the order of the text. Tolkien himself stated that if his work WAS dramatasised, then the drama should follow the order of his book, and not chop and change about following the timelines of the characters.

I respectively totally disagree with Tolkien here. Leave Frodo and Sam out of the film for 1.5 hours, then bring them back to cover the other 1.5 hours and finish the movie off? OK, we would have the best Cliffhanger in all of movie history if we followed this to a tee, but that is the ONLY advantage I can see in this way of telling the story.

Anyone care to discuss?

Lathriel · 02-20-2006, 02:08 PM

I agree with you Essex. If the book was followed it confuse everybody including myself.
It would also seem rather pointless because you sort of wrap up the one story-line with the battle which is a huge climax and then going back to Frodo and sam would create a huge anti-climax. It would make the story seem so deflated.
It works in the books but I could never see it work in a movie.

alatar · 02-20-2006, 03:37 PM

I too would agree. Though it is easier to have the storylines linear and uninterrupted, in this case there's just no way you could do it like that. The question, then, is how well do you think that Professor Jackson pulled that off, in regards to the storylines and transitions between the same.

As noted, some viewers were looking for a prologue to get them started again in ME, but I'm not really interested in that as much as I see this as one movie. By this sequence we've already seen Gandalf (though he's dead), we've re-established Frodo and Sam (and have added Gollum), have met the Three Hunters and even get to see Pip afflict another member of the FotR (Merry) with some pain.

Not sure what else PJ could be doing.

Boromir88 · 04-20-2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

I respectively totally disagree with Tolkien here. Leave Frodo and Sam out of the film for 1.5 hours, then bring them back to cover the other 1.5 hours and finish the movie off? OK, we would have the best Cliffhanger in all of movie history if we followed this to a tee, but that is the ONLY advantage I can see in this way of telling the story.~Essex

I would actually have to agree to, and maybe one of the only things I'm glad PJ changed. I know what you're talking about, I think it's letter 210 where Tolkien is going after Zimmerman, and talks about how it should be as written in the book. I too disagree with Tolkien, I think the linear style he uses of telling both stories works absolutely fine in a book. I've never liked books that constantly jump around go back/forward in time. I like the linear style and telling each story seperately.

With that being said, I don't think such a story telling would work well in movies. I liked the mixing of each story in the movies, and I agree I don't think it would be good to tell Aragorn..etc and then Frodo's journey...theatrically...works fine in the books. I will even go further and say Jackson did an EXCELLENT job of telling all stories at the same time, a very difficult thing to do and Jackson had to deal with telling all 3 stories (Merry and Pippin, Aragorn and Co, Frodo and Sam) and at the same time.

The thing that bothers me most about this scene is the humor of Gimli. I thought FOTR Gimli was rather light-hearted and funny, yet I never lost the sense of what a Dwarf was and what type of people they were. When we get into TTT however and this "wheezing and falling down" Gimli, it is so totally undwarvish you would think Jackson didn't read the books. What's even more annoying about this scene is it creates the wrong impression and I've seen several threads questioning why is Gimli in the Fellowship, he serves no purpose and all he did was slow Aragorn and Legolas down. It's these kinds of changes in Gimli that get me the most annoyed. (I actually think the Dwarf Women scene is quite hilarious...and I will get to it as I catch up on all I've missed) but pretty much the rest of the humor through the rest of the movie (and ROTK) I don't find funny and find it a detriment to the movies.

Other than that I must say another great job, Merry and Pippin with the Orcs were well done. Though Grishnakh seemed to be more driven by eating the two hobbits than getting smart and thinking they had the Ring, you get a good feel of the ruthlessness and cruelty of the Orcs.

02-17-2006, 11:36 AM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Cool that you caught that. Many who are unfamiliar with ME geography will not realize the error until they get a glimpse of the map later in the film (I think), and by that time would most likely have forgotten what 'Legolas the compass-challenged elf' said. My question is why didn't he say "south east," as the way PJ has set up Saruman, I don't see any reason to have the hobbits go to Orthanc. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

02-17-2006, 11:40 AM	#3
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	As astutely described by Alatar , this is an example of PJ's schisophrenic nature in presenting LOTR, great scenery and bits taken correctly/brilliantly from the book versus a tendency to insert rather silly "humor" and nonbook inserts which mostly don't work. Of course PJ could have portrayed the chase as Aragorn and Legolas running along tossing Gimli back and forth between them. But if you ignore his changes this scene does capture very well the orc/three hunters chase. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

02-17-2006, 01:28 PM	#4
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	My brother tirelessly tries to imitate the "Manflesh!" part. It gets kind of annoying but it tells me that my brother is more obsessed with LOTR then he will admit. (Yeah, my conversion was almost succesful!!) Anyway, I love the scenery in this sequence, especially during the running since you get this flying feeling. (Especially in the theatre which is why they should bring LOTR to Imax ) I think the first sign of Pippin's "growing up" is when he leaves his brooch. It is a clever idea and certainly not something Pippin would have thought of back in FOTR. He is becoming less of a fool although he still has his "stupid moments" I like that this sequence contrasts the story of Frodo and Sam because the pace is certainly much higher. Which I think is good because otherwise this movie would really drag. __________________ Back again

02-20-2006, 02:08 PM	#6
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	I agree with you Essex. If the book was followed it confuse everybody including myself. It would also seem rather pointless because you sort of wrap up the one story-line with the battle which is a huge climax and then going back to Frodo and sam would create a huge anti-climax. It would make the story seem so deflated. It works in the books but I could never see it work in a movie. __________________ Back again

02-20-2006, 03:37 PM	#7
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	I too would agree. Though it is easier to have the storylines linear and uninterrupted, in this case there's just no way you could do it like that. The question, then, is how well do you think that Professor Jackson pulled that off, in regards to the storylines and transitions between the same. As noted, some viewers were looking for a prologue to get them started again in ME, but I'm not really interested in that as much as I see this as one movie. By this sequence we've already seen Gandalf (though he's dead), we've re-established Frodo and Sam (and have added Gollum), have met the Three Hunters and even get to see Pip afflict another member of the FotR (Merry) with some pain. Not sure what else PJ could be doing. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

02-17-2006, 11:15 AM	#1
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	just a little thing first. its the little mistakes that sometimes urk me more than the 'big' ones. "They're taking the hobbits North East to Isengard". Sorry can't buy this one. North WEST you silly elf! I can come up with an answer for Legolas looking to his left towards the Orcs on the Western Shore whilst on the river (he was going through the bit of the RIver where it loops around near the Wold), but I can't figure out a way around North East.......

02-20-2006, 03:13 AM	#5
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	Now we get to the point in the movies were Jackson takes a detour from the order of the text. Tolkien himself stated that if his work WAS dramatasised, then the drama should follow the order of his book, and not chop and change about following the timelines of the characters. I respectively totally disagree with Tolkien here. Leave Frodo and Sam out of the film for 1.5 hours, then bring them back to cover the other 1.5 hours and finish the movie off? OK, we would have the best Cliffhanger in all of movie history if we followed this to a tee, but that is the ONLY advantage I can see in this way of telling the story. Anyone care to discuss?