Don't do me like that

[alatar]

Three questions that begged to be asked are: Do women in ME need to hold a sword to be considered worthy of the modern female reader? Is this what Lush and others are asking for, or do they want female characters in LotR to simply get more 'word time' in the books? If we had the Amazon army helping to break the seige of Gondor, would this satisfy if the female captains were given the same 'mention' as Halbarad? Or is the desire to have a female character that walks as far in our heads as do Sam and Frodo, and yet almost never wield a weapon, except at dire need?

And do we have data that would indicate that a mixed gender FotR would be as effective? Would there be a certain number of females in FotR that would be more or less effective? And when considering the question, we should constrain the characters to the same steps (from Bag End to Mount Doom etc and back) as taken by the currently all male Fellowship.

As a male, the question of gender never occcured when I read the LotR as I was just so enthralled by the story, writing, characters, etc that I didn't think about nor care what the gender roles were. Do new readers, either male and female, now start off with that perspective?

[Bêthberry]

Exhibit A:

Originally Posted by Lush

But what I was talking about is a general sense of the lack of importance of gender when it comes to the Fellowship's story. . . . Personally, the "maleness" of the Fellowship does not register with me anymore. I pay very close attention to gender specifics and the way they apply to the females that come up in LotR, but never to the males.

Exhibit B:

Originally Posted by alatar

the question of gender never occcured when I read the LotR as I was just so enthralled by the story, writing, characters, etc that I didn't think about nor care what the gender roles were. Do new readers, either male and female, now start off with that perspective?

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I submit to you, are these two arguing the same case?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I submit to you, are these two arguing the same case?

No.

What's that? I need to provide evidence to instill a reasonable doubt?

I think that my and Lush's arguments are reflections of each other's, like your right and left hands, or stereoisomers for those with some science background. They appear the same but are not. I stated that initially I did not see gender, but now could when I read the text and now having read this thread (if I could ever get my books back) whereas Lush seems to be saying that now she doesn't see gender, and I infer then that initially that she did.

And I think that we had better consider the impact on the earth's rotation around the sun before we say that Lush and I agree.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

And I think that we had better consider the impact on the earth's rotation around the sun before we say that Lush and I agree.

You're not saying that the earth would move, are you, alatar?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You're not saying that the earth would move, are you, alatar?

Umm...It's been a long while since I was repdrunk enough to think that my prose made the earth move.

Anyway, I guess one could read that that way, and the earth is always moving, to be sure, but I only meant that agreement between she and I is so unlikely that it would most likely crash the Earth into the sun.

And as you know, that would leave a big empty space between Mars and Venus...

Thank you for making me even more uncomfortable on this thread .

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Thank you for making me even more uncomfortable on this thread .

My dear alatar, let me say that, if this discomfort be truly uncomfortable, I am happy to save you from the fate which Tuor in Gondolin has suggested with his quotation from Tolkien about a too comfortable state on the Power to the People thread .

Such is the state of art these days, that discomfort sometimes leads to new vision. Perhaps you might take some time to consider the gendered-ungendered state of things which has been suggested? Because otherwise our dear moderator Estelyn Telcontar will accuse us of vile chatting and Lush will fire off more canons.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Such is the state of art these days, that discomfort sometimes leads to new vision. Perhaps you might take some time to consider the gendered-ungendered state of things which has been suggested? Because otherwise our dear moderator Estelyn Telcontar will accuse us of vile chatting and Lush will fire off more canons.

Much agreed, and I still await enlightenment in regards to the questions that I posed earlier in the thread. And I am not uncomfortable with the regendering of the LotR; I'm still not what we're all talking about (though, as many will note, that never hindered posting ).

My lack of vision is that, try as I might (squinting now), I can only see the world through male eyes. At times I may don female spectacles, yet these are not my eyes. Over the years I've read books that I just didn't get, yet I continued reading them anyway. Is the maleness of LotR that much of an impediment to female readers? My own brother, star quarterback, has yet to set foot out of Bree, and he's only had my books for two years now.

A gender thing? Or maybe he just doesn't get it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An aside concerning the matter of women as Walkers of the Fellowship: It is interesting to note that women constitute an overwhelming majority of the Barrow-Downs constituency in the "Walk to Rivendell" project. Very few Barrow-Downer males started, and even less have stayed.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguments.