Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf feared the Balrog in the book & film but defeated it. He was anxious of the WK due to its great ability to influence the battle for ME on Minas Tirith (in the book). But the likelihood is that he would be too much for the WK in the end ...... the WK would withdraw after finding out for itself that it can match Gandalf but cannot defeat him, & would then cast its terror on the battlefield instead etc.

I don't think that Gandalf was ever going to destroy the WK ........... not unless the WK stayed long enough to battle for hours (as was the case with the Balrog of Morgoth). I also think Gandalf was much more terrified of a possible encounter with the Balrog, far more than with the WK. Only a hint though that the Balrog was more dangerous than the WK. The truth rests with Mr Tolkien.

[Guinevere]

Come to think of it, this encounter in the book is in quite a different setting - it is much more important than the one in the movie!
In the book scene Grond has just broken the great gate of Minas Tirith and no enemy has yet entered the City. Gandalf on Shadowfax alone stands there to hinder the Witchking from entering.("all fled before his face")
And when the horns are heard, it is indeed the Rohirrim who save Minas Tirith from being invaded.

In the Movie encounter, the enemy is already in the City.( PJ wanted some more fighting!) The arrival of the Witchking on the fell beast is impressive, but not all that important. Gandalf just standing unmoving and steadfast wouldn't make that much sense, since he's not guarding the gate against the invasion. Even if Gandalf would defeat the WK, what would it help the City?
Even the arrival and the brave fight of the Rohirrim aren't that important either. In the end it's the ghastly green termite-army of the undead who saves the town.

A lot of changes which in turn caused other changes ... (most of them not to my liking, since I am not at all fond of battle and fight scenes. I usually skip them when watching the DVD!)

[Essex]

We have to remember also, in the book, that Rohirrim's forces were also fading. When they saw the ships with the black sales all hope was lost. So therefore, Aragorn and his men also saved the day. In the film, as you point out Guinivere, that

In the end it's the ghastly green termite-army of the undead who saves the town.

I've tried to answer this one before. If we do not have the men of the Dead in the Pellenor, then we would have to have yet ANOTHER battle scene at Pelagir on the River. We would have to invest time in the men of the Dead fighting the Corsairs, Aragorn freeing the Slaves, Aragorn picking up all the other men, Aragorn freeing the King of the Dead and his people from their curse - in the book we had this told to us in retrospect - this would not work in a movie - all none book readers would be shouting 'where di all the green guys go?'

so without the 'green men' at Pellonor we would have to have ANOTHER big fight scene, lots of scene setting and dialouge which would SLOW the film down now that Jackson has helped skillfully bring it up towards a crescendo, and therefore we would have no surprise entrance into the Pellenor (as we have in the book) by Aragorn and co.

Therefore film wise, I can understand why Jackson had the Dead help fight Sauron's forces at Pellenor rather than at Pelagir. It was the lesser of two evils. Hey, I'd like a full length unabridged version of the text made into a mini series, and then we can have the EXACT scenes acted out as Tolkien described them. 54 hours of material (thats how long it takes to read it out aloud), with exposition, retrospective telling of tales etc cannot be fitted into three 3-4 hour movies.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Therefore film wise, I can understand why Jackson had the Dead help fight Sauron's forces at Pellenor rather than at Pelagir. It was the lesser of two evils. Hey, I'd like a full length unabridged version of the text made into a mini series, and then we can have the EXACT scenes acted out as Tolkien described them. 54 hours of material (thats how long it takes to read it out aloud), with exposition, retrospective telling of tales etc cannot be fitted into three 3-4 hour movies.

But couldn't we have cut one dwarf drinking scene in exchange for showing Aragorn freeing one of many slaves, so that when the little green men do 'deboat,' they do so along with other non-ghost help?

[Essex]

yes, why not? free a few slaves and let them jump off too and fight. don't think that would need too much exposition to do. maybe pj thought of this but didn't want the thought of even more fighters at the Pellenor people would have to keep track of. hang on, is he a baddie or a goody? I know that guy with the painted face is a baddie. but what about these other 'humans'?

just trying to see WHY he did it this way. yes, the films aren't perfect and there are occasions where we see things we could have done much better (I can't wait until we meet faramir in the TT discussion thread!)

I take back the comments originally posted - PJ has explained these elsewhere already.

Wow! It's been a little over a year, and this thread is still sparking heated conversation as I never thought I would arouse. Thank you everyone for your shared intellect and well mannered behavior, I would expect nothing less.

[Essex]

Argonath,

talk about 'Light the blue torch paper and retire'

I take it you like setting off Fireworks then!

[alatar]

We can now finally answer the question posed by this thread. The new The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II video game website has both Gandalf the White and the Witch-King on the Fellbeast. Each character is modeled as in the PJ films. If someone or persons would like to pitch in, buy and send me the game, I will volunteer my scientific background to put this question to the test.

A HD monitor (23" or greater) may yield more convincing results .