Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[Nogrod]

Elu!

You seem to be addressing the one case, I myself am a bit dissatisfied with Tolkien. It sure would have been beautiful, if Sam and Frodo had died at the mount Doom! That would have been a story worth singing about (remember those recurrent mentionings by Sam about the food-ratios!), as Sam foretold it.

The whole ending sequence is a bit odd. First there is this "deus ex machina", the Eagles', to turn Frodo & Sam safe and sound back to Minas Tirith, and then all this stuff with the hobbits' making the better of Saruman. It's kind of an easy ending for a story that would have deserved a better one?

Another thing to be worth of a closer look, is Tolkien's going for a fatalistic solution. Like in Matrix - were the whole thing was made even more badly - the end-result is kind of "the way things have to be". Gandalf points out to the decision of Bilbo, not to kill Gollum, and Frodo takes on that: Gollum has a role to play in some larger picture, that is foretold already, even if he doesn't understand it quite yet. Then, while Frodo can't throw the Ring away, Gollum comes to finish the thing. Kind of "deus ex machina" that one too...

So everything's in order, as it will have to be, you just have to find out the reason to behave in a manner you should? But how about, if the world really is a bit more complicated place? Maybe the world is a place, where there are no easy solutions (black or white) and going strongly by your belief, really makes more damage than helps anyone?

[Farael]

Well, personally I think the Eagles may be a case of 'deux ex machina' as they had not been an integral part of the story (besides perhaps saving Gandalf from harm) and I can't recall knowing how they got there.

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with Gollum being anywhere near the definition. First of all, he is definetly a big part of the story. Frodo would have never made it to where he did if it wasn't because of Gollum, even though his betrayal. Then, we just don't know what happens to Gollum, but ithere is some mention of him by the two orcs that were looking for Frodo and Sam once they escape from the tower.

Originally Posted by RoTK

'All right, all right!' said the tracker. 'I'll say no more and go on thinking. But what's the black sneak got to do with it all? That gobbler with the flapping hands?'
'I don't know. Nothing, maybe. But he's up to no good, nosing around, I'll wager. Curse him! No sooner had he slipped us and run off than word came he's wanted alive, wanted quick.''Well, I hope they get him and put him through it,' growled the 241 tracker. 'He messed up the scent back there, pinching that cast-off mail-shirt that he found, and paddling all round the place before I could get there.'

So we know Gollum is still around and even more, he is still following Frodo (he messed up the scent, therefore he is probably following it)

Besides, in retrospective, it's quite evident that Gandalf knew that Gollum would have something to do with the destruction of the ring

Originally Posted by Fellowship

'Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many--yours not least.

I must say I added the first part mostly because I love that quote *blushes* but there we see Gandalf 'hinting' that Gollum might yet do something. When he helps the hobbits get into Mordor you can say "ah, that was it" and then he turns up in the very end (of the Ring anyhow) and destroys it.... then you realize that was his destiny all along.

Having said that, I also agree with Lalwendë in her assesment of Gollum's end.

[Firefoot]

You seem to be addressing the one case, I myself am a bit dissatisfied with Tolkien. It sure would have been beautiful, if Sam and Frodo had died at the mount Doom! That would have been a story worth singing about.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Even if the Eagles may have been slightly out of place (more on that in a second), I definitely disagree about Sam and Frodo dying at Mt. Doom. Not only would this be extremely depressing, it would also be dissatisfying, at least to me. The story would not be complete. It would completely remove the topic of healing (or the lack thereof) and how you really can't go back, both for Sam and Frodo, but especially Frodo. It's one of those cases where dying would almost be the easier way out. The fact that they must go on and deal with it is one of the poignant things about the book.

Concerning the Eagles. Yes, I would say that they are definitely a case of Deus ex Machina. In some ways, they don't really 'fit.' Gwaihir, of course, has connections with Gandalf - are Eagles capable of osanwë? But if Frodo and Sam were to be saved, then there really doesn't seem to be much way around it. The circumstances were too dire and everyone else too far away, even if they could be able to rescue them. And although the Eagles could not have brought the Ring directly to Mordor because it would draw too much attention, there is already a battle going on (or about to go on when they start out), it's not like they're going to bring a lot of extra attention. The other thing that perhaps is not considered enough is that the Eagles might actually have come to aid in the battle (that question of osanwë again), and that their aid was just needed when Gandalf realized what was going on. So I suppose the case could be presented either way. Just like Gollum's death can be explained in other ways, so can the appearance of the Eagles.

And in a fantasy world that does have a God, and in a story where there are the themes of hope and mercy and healing, maybe the Eagles aren't so out of place after all.

[Nogrod]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Even if the Eagles may have been slightly out of place (more on that in a second), I definitely disagree about Sam and Frodo dying at Mt. Doom. Not only would this be extremely depressing, it would also be dissatisfying, at least to me. The story would not be complete. It would completely remove the topic of healing (or the lack thereof) and how you really can't go back, both for Sam and Frodo, but especially Frodo. It's one of those cases where dying would almost be the easier way out. The fact that they must go on and deal with it is one of the poignant things about the book.

Well, that's quite a familiar feeling. It sure is nice to see the Hobbits coming back to their home, as learned and experienced ones'. But enough of miracles? Sorry to oppose you Firefoot again, we should be more common-minded?

Concerning the Eagles. Yes, I would say that they are definitely a case of Deus ex Machina. In some ways, they don't really 'fit.' Gwaihir, of course, has connections with Gandalf - are Eagles capable of osanwë? But if Frodo and Sam were to be saved, then there really doesn't seem to be much way around it. The circumstances were too dire and everyone else too far away, even if they could be able to rescue them. And although the Eagles could not have brought the Ring directly to Mordor because it would draw too much attention, there is already a battle going on (or about to go on when they start out), it's not like they're going to bring a lot of extra attention. The other thing that perhaps is not considered enough is that the Eagles might actually have come to aid in the battle (that question of osanwë again), and that their aid was just needed when Gandalf realized what was going on. So I suppose the case could be presented either way. Just like Gollum's death can be explained in other ways, so can the appearance of the Eagles.

Anyhow, the eagles were there, and saved the day. So "deus ex machina"!

And in a fantasy world that does have a God, and in a story where there are the themes of hope and mercy and healing, maybe the Eagles aren't so out of place after all.

The question being all the time, whether the world is fatalistic or not...

[alatar]

Isn't the deus ex machina (used in Greek plays) the fall into Sammath Naur, in regards to Gollum? Don't some believe that it's the hand of Eru who gives him the nudge over the edge?

Today, being of different opinion, I think that Gollum is not nudged, and that Eru played no overt part in it. Gollum is a rogue, meaning, to me, the element of chaos. Good and evil can be balanced, yet every now and then the pot needs a good stir, some tension, to bring forth something new. Bilbo possessed the Ring, but did not follow Frodo. Sauron desired the Ring, yet did not search for it himself and thought more of war than just finding the Ring ("I'll crush the islands of Free Folk then continue the search."). Very unmoved - inactive - and very orderly and structured, respectively.

Gollum, though old, decimated, starving, tortured in mind and body, still goes after the Ring. He plays both sides, good and evil, and even has two personalities, but what joins them is the chaos.

What a show for Eru! It most likely sat on the edge of it's seat, waiting to see how the dice would come up. Frodo could not destroy the Ring; the Wise knew or at least suspected that. Would Sauron be able to get the Ring from Frodo? Surely he would - there's no betting on that outcome. So we have Gollum, who if he gets to Frodo sooner (i.e. with Shelob), the Dark Lord might recover the Ring and all is lost. If he gets to Frodo later, Frodo puts him down before he strikes (and still all is lost). but if Gollum goes after the Ring, like he does, when Frodo is still admiring himself, there's a chance that Gollum will succeed, lose, destroy the Ring (with or without destroying Frodo), etc. The outcome is less certain and therefore more interesting.

Ah chaos. Gollum could play either side, and more likely neither side, as he was neither good nor evil, but somewhat unique. The dice were tumbling, and how will they land?

Afterwards, when Gollum reclaims the Ring yet falls off the edge (chaos makes poor choices as well as better choices - at random), the game is over. Eru, pickled pink by the great show, sends the Eagles as a 'thank you' to the players Frodo and Sam.

Hope that this makes some sense.

Gods who know what will be must get bored.

[Firefoot]

It sure is nice to see the Hobbits coming back to their home, as learned and experienced ones'. But enough of miracles?

I guess I just don't get tired of the miracles. You think it's just going to be all right now - on the slopes of Mt. Doom, Frodo seems to be at peace, his burden is gone, and now the Eagles are coming - that means it's going to be all right, right? But it's not. It makes for that beautiful eucatastrophe which Tolkien brings out so well. And, at least in the view of the Shire hobbits, Frodo and Sam aren't as much the learned and experienced ones - Sam is some (okay, maybe a lot, but still not as much as M & P), but Frodo is mostly ignored. Mostly talking about Frodo here, I was meaning more of his healing process - more internal - than the new perceptions of him, if that makes sense.

This is probably why I've never had a problem with the Eagles. They might not 'fit' quite right in the story, but the miracles for me do not detract from the story, they add to it. This undoubtedly has much to do with my upbringing and faith, but there it is. The prospect that Sam's simple preserverence and hope that brought them out onto the mountain was fulfilled even beyond hope is very right to me. Even if it does take the Eagles to do it.

I haven't quite decided what I think that Gollum's fall is... a simple mistake or an act of Eru, it doesn't really matter to me. As Lalwende so well put it, it is so entirely right that whichever reason is correct (or a mixture of both) does not ultimately matter to me. It is just right.

I guess my point is that I wouldn't consider it so much fatalist as ever hopeful. It's that hope... faith... that everything will turn out right.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I guess I just don't get tired of the miracles. You think it's just going to be all right now - on the slopes of Mt. Doom, Frodo seems to be at peace, his burden is gone, and now the Eagles are coming - that means it's going to be all right, right? But it's not. It makes for that beautiful eucatastrophe which Tolkien brings out so well. And, at least in the view of the Shire hobbits, Frodo and Sam aren't as much the learned and experienced ones - Sam is some (okay, maybe a lot, but still not as much as M & P), but Frodo is mostly ignored. Mostly talking about Frodo here, I was meaning more of his healing process - more internal - than the new perceptions of him, if that makes sense.

So it's pure aesthetics'?

That is no bad ground to interpret a book, but there are other ways to do it also...

Love you, Firefoot! Making a good point anyways

[Firefoot]

So it's pure aesthetics'?

No, it's completion. If Frodo were to have died at Mt. Doom, his journey would not have been complete. Well, I suppose it would have been within the story, but he still had more learning, growing, to do. Simply killing off the characters even if it might be the most logical thing within the story to happen is not always the solution.

Okay, so maybe some of it is aesthetics. But not wholly - it's not quite that simple. There was more for them to do, further for them to go before the story could end. The problem was that without some kind of Deus ex Machina, there wasn't really a way for that to happen - hence the Eagles.

[Nogrod]

Well, what did he really learn, where did he show that growing? I guess, this is just the place were Tolkien has not thought of everything... Frodo is quite lame after the climax: or unbelievably heroish' when coming to the Shire. There is something rotten in the state of the Shire...

I quite agree. J.R.R. had to find a solution, and a solution he did come by!

[Mister Underhill]

Wow, fast moving thread! I still need to catch up on the many interesting posts here, but I thought I'd toss out that there is in fact an old deus ex machina thread started by the long lost doug*platypus. Keep rolling here -- just thought those with spare time and an extra-special interest in deus ex might be interested.

I'll be back here if I can get up to speed and think of something worth adding.

[alatar]

The eagles were permitted, in my view, to enter the fray as the quest was finished. To show beforehand (excepting the dwarf and wizard airlift to the vales of Anduin, of course) would be breaking the rules. Eru, through Manwë, sends the Istari to counter Sauron. Surely if it wanted a faster result, though with little to no free will input from the ME dwellers, Eru could have permitted the Istari Uncloaked to be delivered to Sauron's porch via the Eagles. Sauron may be the match of one or two wizards, but not five at once, and not as wizened old men but as they are in Aman.

But where's the fun in that? That would be like me pre-chewing all of my children's food. Sure it would be fun, but they'd develop weak jaws, and exactly why would they need teeth? And when I'm gone...

So the Eagles get to show up after the residents of ME, acting together (the feint of Aragorn, the defense of the Mark by the ents, the Galadhrim and Bardings etc etc) along with Frodo, uproot the current big bad weed. They're a bonus. Frodo and Sam could die on Mount Doom, but they're still needed to start the cycle again, as we see in the Scouring, as most likely the Valar aren't sending any more help.

Sauron is defeated and the rules aren't broken.

[Nogrod]

[

QUOTE=alatar]Isn't the deus ex machina (used in Greek plays) the fall into Sammath Naur, in regards to Gollum? Don't some believe that it's the hand of Eru who gives him the nudge over the edge?

You just cling in to the point! And the question, whether Tolkien was just making a fatalistic decision, or found a way to ease Frodo up, remains...

Gollum, though old, decimated, starving, tortured in mind and body, still goes after the Ring. He plays both sides, good and evil, and even has two personalities, but what joins them is the chaos.

There are enough of mythologies to make this point. Like the Norwegian "Ginnungagap", there is the idea of chaos everywhere, as the starting position. The Babylonians' had the same story...

Ah chaos. Gollum could play either side, and more likely neither side, as he was neither good nor evil, but somewhat unique. The dice were tumbling, and how will they land?

But he really played a part! He was not a chance creature in the story, but an integral part of the whole history. He couldn't play "either side", but was destined to play the role he had to! He had no choice, as well as Frodo had no choice! They were all pawns at a greater play, which Tolkien had in his mind, creating this fatalistic universe of his?

EDIT: Cross-posted with Firefoot

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You just cling in to the point! And the question, whether Tolkien was just making a fatalistic decision, or found a way to ease Frodo up, remains...

There are enough of mythologies to make this point. Like the Norwegian "Ginnungagap", there is the idea of chaos everywhere, as the starting position. The Babylonians' had the same story...

Sorry, but I'm just not getting your meaning, as sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

But he really played a part! He was not a chance creature in the story, but an integral part of the whole history. He couldn't play "either side", but was destined to play the role he had to! He had no choice, as well as Frodo had no choice! They were all pawns at a greater play, which Tolkien had in his mind, creating this fatalistic universe of his?

Again not exactly sure what you mean. The grass under their feet in Parth Galen, too, played a part, and also wasn't chance creations, I guess, from some perspective. And in regards to fatalism, if I understand you, Tolkien the author can make his marionettes dance higgity-piggity as he wishes (unlike myself who quickly loses control over whatever I start to write...like most of my posts ), but the characters therein, like us, think that they have free will.

Everyone has choices. I'm too tired for a butterfly effect world, as that's a bit silly, but I think that we and Frodo could and can decide our fates. Frodo could have let another stand forth at Rivendell, and then we'd be discussing the Eagles saving Chuck and Tom. Or, as Lush may prefer, Rosie and Daisy.

Or, in another view, Frodo made the choice to throw the Ring away along the journey, and shortly thereafter the Ring is recovered and sometime later, the everlasting Darkness covers all who could not flee. Now, assuming ME is our 'history,' this did not happen as we wouldn't be here. Or, it did, but not in this universe, as again we still have Sam and Frodo.

Have I muddled things enough?

[Nogrod]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sorry, but I'm just not getting your meaning, as sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

Everyone has choices. I'm too tired for a butterfly effect world, as that's a bit silly, but I think that we and Frodo could and can decide our fates.

Well, you can think it in many ways! It's not basically an argument to say that you think we can make choices to deal with our lives! You have no grounds on the question, "why", here!

You can put it in two ways; either we have the chance, or then we do not.

The first case can be put in a way, that there is something or someone, that has to choose the actions or whatever it might be. Another way to look at that, is to say, you can justify your choises' (etc.) at the face of a fortune, or a world as such, by which you have to do one thing or another.

Or then one just is a piece in the play we call the world, acting, along the lines one is supposed to act, after the chemical and biological ways we've built with. Or then we are just quantum machines, going about quite randomly, but without a clear pattern. Or then with a one?...

So just saying, I think (therefore I am - what a common sense nonsense!) , is not enough?

Sorry to make this harder as it should be...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In the end what we think is immaterial. The point is that Tolkien thought that this world is one in which we have the freedom to choose our actions and that we are personally responsible for them. For Tolkien, each decision really does come down to a moral choice for good or ill, and without that structure his mythology and his novels make no sense. Moreover it would be extremely odd for a Christian to believe that we are simply automatons performing predetermined actions in a random and meaningless universe.

However we might view the primary world, Tolkien's sub-created universe is one with a creator, a supreme being who is the source of good. This benificent presence gives meaning to Tolkien's universe, and the presence of evil within that universe introduces the necessity for moral choice and individual moral responsibility. Many of the workings of Arda make no sense whatsoever when divorced from this structure. Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves.

In the case of Frodo, we do actually have Tolkien's word for it that he could never have resisted the temptation of the Ring in the final crisis. Thus the conclusion of his quest presents a moral lesson about his tolerance and mercy toward Gollum. If Frodo and Sam had killed him, as it was only logical and sensible to do, then he would have been unable through his final treachery to save Frodo from the domination of the Ring. Essentially, Frodo has the opportunity to decide whether he is to destroy the Ring and complete his mission or to claim it as his own and be destroyed, but his will has been overcome. He is no longer able to make the decision for himself, but the outcome of his earlier decisions has been to bring the means of his salvation with him. All in all this does not overturn the basic premise that Frodo possesses free will within the context of Tolkien's fiction (which is the only context in which he exists in any case). Perhaps someone who has access to their books will be able to give the location of Tolkien's reflections in his published letters.

Before I was sidetracked down this philosophical path, I meant to point out that the Eagles as a deus ex machina were also discussed in Flaws in Lord of the Rings... Yes in the book., which is also still open. There were some nice reflections there from Kalimac among others. There's also a thread called The Great Eagle Mystery, which immediately sprang to mind when I saw this discussion. These may be of help on this matter, and I certainly make more valuable contributions in the former thread than I have here. If you wanted the lyrics to albums by the Eagles, you should look at this site.

[Raynor]

Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves.

Well, there are some notable exceptions; concerning 'active intervention':

Originally Posted by The shadow of the past, FotR

- Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was _meant_to find the Ring, and _not_ by its maker. In which case you also were _meant_to have it
...
- Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?
- Such questions cannot be answered,’ said Gandalf. ‘You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have

Originally Posted by Three is a company

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world
...
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
- I will take the Ring, he said, though I do not know the way.

Originally Posted by The breaking of the fellowship

- I wonder? said Aragorn. He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.

[I also think that when foretelling is involved, it rules out free will to a certain extent; and some beings have a special doom ahead of them, such Earendil, Tuor, Thingol or Beren; Luthien is also moved by doom to Beren and their union is stated to part of the divine plan (cf letter #153)]

[alatar]

Reading Raynor's post made me think about the fact that as a species (and I would extrapolate this to our elven cousins) we have the ability and desire to see patterns. This ability yields a clear survival advantage.

Three dwarves walk singly into the East-gate of Moria, pre-Balin colony days. Each one walks in, I hear some noise, then I hear "Durin's Bane is upon us!" then "Argh!" The dwarf fails to come back out. By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time.

Also, when one arrogant elf would rise each morning, he would note that shortly thereafter the sun would appear in the eastern sky. He concluded that his rising caused the Sun to rise also. Obviously.

My point (do I have one ?) is that we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke.

I was meant to type this post, and some of you knew that .