Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[Nogrod]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sorry, but I'm just not getting your meaning, as sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

Everyone has choices. I'm too tired for a butterfly effect world, as that's a bit silly, but I think that we and Frodo could and can decide our fates.

Well, you can think it in many ways! It's not basically an argument to say that you think we can make choices to deal with our lives! You have no grounds on the question, "why", here!

You can put it in two ways; either we have the chance, or then we do not.

The first case can be put in a way, that there is something or someone, that has to choose the actions or whatever it might be. Another way to look at that, is to say, you can justify your choises' (etc.) at the face of a fortune, or a world as such, by which you have to do one thing or another.

Or then one just is a piece in the play we call the world, acting, along the lines one is supposed to act, after the chemical and biological ways we've built with. Or then we are just quantum machines, going about quite randomly, but without a clear pattern. Or then with a one?...

So just saying, I think (therefore I am - what a common sense nonsense!) , is not enough?

Sorry to make this harder as it should be...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In the end what we think is immaterial. The point is that Tolkien thought that this world is one in which we have the freedom to choose our actions and that we are personally responsible for them. For Tolkien, each decision really does come down to a moral choice for good or ill, and without that structure his mythology and his novels make no sense. Moreover it would be extremely odd for a Christian to believe that we are simply automatons performing predetermined actions in a random and meaningless universe.

However we might view the primary world, Tolkien's sub-created universe is one with a creator, a supreme being who is the source of good. This benificent presence gives meaning to Tolkien's universe, and the presence of evil within that universe introduces the necessity for moral choice and individual moral responsibility. Many of the workings of Arda make no sense whatsoever when divorced from this structure. Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves.

In the case of Frodo, we do actually have Tolkien's word for it that he could never have resisted the temptation of the Ring in the final crisis. Thus the conclusion of his quest presents a moral lesson about his tolerance and mercy toward Gollum. If Frodo and Sam had killed him, as it was only logical and sensible to do, then he would have been unable through his final treachery to save Frodo from the domination of the Ring. Essentially, Frodo has the opportunity to decide whether he is to destroy the Ring and complete his mission or to claim it as his own and be destroyed, but his will has been overcome. He is no longer able to make the decision for himself, but the outcome of his earlier decisions has been to bring the means of his salvation with him. All in all this does not overturn the basic premise that Frodo possesses free will within the context of Tolkien's fiction (which is the only context in which he exists in any case). Perhaps someone who has access to their books will be able to give the location of Tolkien's reflections in his published letters.

Before I was sidetracked down this philosophical path, I meant to point out that the Eagles as a deus ex machina were also discussed in Flaws in Lord of the Rings... Yes in the book., which is also still open. There were some nice reflections there from Kalimac among others. There's also a thread called The Great Eagle Mystery, which immediately sprang to mind when I saw this discussion. These may be of help on this matter, and I certainly make more valuable contributions in the former thread than I have here. If you wanted the lyrics to albums by the Eagles, you should look at this site.

[Raynor]

Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves.

Well, there are some notable exceptions; concerning 'active intervention':

Originally Posted by The shadow of the past, FotR

- Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was _meant_to find the Ring, and _not_ by its maker. In which case you also were _meant_to have it
...
- Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?
- Such questions cannot be answered,’ said Gandalf. ‘You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have

Originally Posted by Three is a company

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world
...
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
- I will take the Ring, he said, though I do not know the way.

Originally Posted by The breaking of the fellowship

- I wonder? said Aragorn. He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.

[I also think that when foretelling is involved, it rules out free will to a certain extent; and some beings have a special doom ahead of them, such Earendil, Tuor, Thingol or Beren; Luthien is also moved by doom to Beren and their union is stated to part of the divine plan (cf letter #153)]

[alatar]

Reading Raynor's post made me think about the fact that as a species (and I would extrapolate this to our elven cousins) we have the ability and desire to see patterns. This ability yields a clear survival advantage.

Three dwarves walk singly into the East-gate of Moria, pre-Balin colony days. Each one walks in, I hear some noise, then I hear "Durin's Bane is upon us!" then "Argh!" The dwarf fails to come back out. By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time.

Also, when one arrogant elf would rise each morning, he would note that shortly thereafter the sun would appear in the eastern sky. He concluded that his rising caused the Sun to rise also. Obviously.

My point (do I have one ?) is that we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke.

I was meant to type this post, and some of you knew that .

[Raynor]

By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time

That is, if you are not a dwarf - they seem to like going in a row into a trap .

when one arrogant elf would rise each morning

I am sure you meant a drunk elf.

we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke.

I would give more credit to the greatest of lore-masters and the wisest of the maiar.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would give more credit to the greatest of lore-masters and the wisest of the maiar.

But they could have an agenda (instilling the 'Eru exists' theory into the hobbits) or simply be delusional.

[Elu Ancalime]

Concerning Eagles: It seems that in terms of literature, everytime the Eagles appear in Tolkiens work it is some kind of Deux ex machina kind of way. Its interesting, because the Eagles are the kind of missionaries of Manwe, in a sense (they dont go around converting people, but they are his sort of representations in mortal lands). Everytime the Eagles show up it seems to modify the plot greatly whearas if they hadnt. The Dwarves might have had to trek endlessly until they made it across the Andunin, and delayed Gandalfs coming to Dol Gulder and the White Council. The Battle of Five Armies might have been a loss, or more Pyrric. Although the Eagles attcked the Nazgul at the Black Gate, we can see this led to Mount Doom. And of course, we might have had a wizards corpse on Orthanc.

Considering Gollum and the Eagles, it brings up that interesting point of fatalism mentioned. I think that in Arda, all things excluding Eru and the Valar for the most part are meant to be. Now, part of this is Mandos. The prophocey of the Dagorath proves he Eru and Manwe and anyone else know of the last battle with Melkor. However, I do not think that they know each and every thing that will happen. The Valar have the Fire, so they make choices; yet the ones that seem the most important come before the Elves. That is mainly which Ainar went with Melko and who stayed with Manwe. After then the choices are mostly one-sided. The War of Wrath is no exception; whenever Morgoth created Mass war that was destroying Middle Earth, the Valar were the only ones who could stop him if no oine else could. So I think, like Gandalf predicted, that the Ring would be destroyed, but the manner of "how" is the unknown. The destruction of the Ring, at least when spoke about the most Wise (Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, etc) was always hinted at as,"You realize what would happen if Sauron and the RIng wernt destroyed," even though it would mean,"We known that Sauron is fated to be destroyed eventually(couldnt survive the Dagorath if it was that long) so lets take him out before things get any worse."

So I dont think Mandos and Eru knew that Ted Sandyman would be a pain, (doubtless they had the power, but that was not what it was for) but I think they knew that a being named Gandalf would aid Free Peoples including the Little People to bring about the destruction of Sauron, and a sebret Blueprint and DNA sheet of Balrogs and their bodily extremities.
________
MONTANA DISPENSARIES

[Nogrod]

Last night I really seemed to have been carried away beyond my skills in the language I use. Sorry about that. I appreciate Elu's point about the Eagles.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Concerning Eagles: It seems that in terms of literature, everytime the Eagles appear in Tolkiens work it is some kind of Deux ex machina kind of way. Its interesting, because the Eagles are the kind of missionaries of Manwe, in a sense (they dont go around converting people, but they are his sort of representations in mortal lands). Everytime the Eagles show up it seems to modify the plot greatly whearas if they hadnt.

But to come to the discussion opened by Squatter of Amon Rhûdh

The point is that Tolkien thought that this world is one in which we have the freedom to choose our actions and that we are personally responsible for them. For Tolkien, each decision really does come down to a moral choice for good or ill, and without that structure his mythology and his novels make no sense. Moreover it would be extremely odd for a Christian to believe that we are simply automatons performing predetermined actions in a random and meaningless universe.

Well, that sure was Tolkien's point - I couldn't dream about arguing over that. But how should we see it? As ingenious truth about the world? As Tolkien's wisdom that outweighted many of his contemporaries, as a foolish hope of a romantic living at a wrong century, or as a fool that would gather followers more fool than he was?

Not wishing to offend anyone...